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Bad fuel or what?

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ScottyHOMEy

04-30-2008 19:21:36




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Apologies up front for this bein' so long. I'm vexed at this point.

My BN's actin' up. I rebuilt the motor several years ago and went to some pains to keep her lubed over the interim. Once I got her painted and all the parts back on, she ran and moved just fine.

Timing is good. she starts well on the crank or the starter. Governor has new spring and thrust bearing. So between that and her runnin' right from the start, I'm reasonably confident of the mechanicals, including the little that can be done with the carb.

Over the winter I'd open the garage door and run her every few weeks with some paper over the grill to help her heat up good each time. Started and ran right all through that period.

After a couple parades and a show last summer and fall, I never had occasion to actually move the old girl again until last week. She ran like a top on the level ground, but goin' up the hill to the neighbor's brushpile burnin' party, she'd falter/stumble. Sounded and felt like a fuel problem. Backfired once. Coming home that same night, same thing. Downhill riding against the governor was no problem, the flats were no problem, but accelerating was the same faltering.

I've had a look inside the tank with my handy mirror. Nothing but gray metal to be seen. Outlet to the sediment bowl is clear. Sediment bowl is good. The screen at the elbow into the carb is clean.

First troubleshooting runs since then, she ran ragged at startup, but came out of it as she warmed up (after five minutes or better of running ragged), though I haven't yet tested that under load.

I noticed condensation on the tractor early in the winter (before this problem emerged) and so dumped some dry gas in and ran her for a while the next day before filling her with gas treated with StaBil.

So . . . . many paragraphs later, is my question. In runnin' the tractor in the garage (doors and windows open) the exhaust has that old gas, mothball smell. I've had some trouble with water even in fresh gas brought home in cans for the garden tractor on snow-throwin' duty. Am I dealin' with bad/wet gas? Am I dealin' with gas that doesn't store well? (Either would be a bummer, because all the gas around here comes from the Irving refinery in Saint John, NB, no gettin' around it.) Is it possible that filling the tank as I did washed down old varnish that had dried on the walls of the otherwise clean tank? Is it something I can burn through and get past the problem?

I apologize again for the length of this, but I'm about out of ideas and will welcome any you may have.

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Richard OMara

05-03-2008 16:29:25




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
That sounds like a problem I had with my H. After cleaning the sedament bowl I thought I had the valve all the way open,but it wasn't. While mowing it would spit and sputter while going uphill in the same spot. It about drove me nuts untill I finnaly forced the shutoff valve and opened it up all the way.Its' ran good ever since.



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1fortyfanatic

05-01-2008 16:58:50




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to bjc, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Scott, had similar problem with my 140 - would run weak and horrible under load. Long story short, after fiddling with the fuel system, buying a new coil, new plugs - it turned out that I had 2 bent valve pushrods. Couldn't find any locally, so I gently hammered them straight. Been running great for months now.

So, if all the above don't do it, pull your valve cover off and have a look at those valve pushrods. And adjust all the valves while your in there. Good luck.

Dave

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Hugh Mackay

05-01-2008 16:50:15




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Scotty: Your upgrade problem makes me think restriction in the stem of the sediment bowl, coupled with old gas and lack of some good hard pulling. Frist check the gas flow as goes into carb, solid stream out of the line will let you know bowl stem is good. Fill it with fresh gas, hook a good 4,000# hardwood on behind, and drag it about 3 miles. Bet you'll see a big difference.

Your refering to brothers Irving, threw me for a loop. I had you pegged as a westerner. Since Irving is the only gas, you've got to be Maine or NB. I know Irving is pushing south and west, but not everybody's gas come from that refinery futher away.

I can tell you this since moving to Ontario, I miss Irving diesel. Their diesel has an edge on everything in the market as it relates to power, cold weather starting. They do however sacrifice some fuel milage. I've talked with truckers all across North America, most that have experienced it, will tell you they love to get a fill up in New England or Alantic Canada at Irving. I've not seen anything to match it.

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ScottyHOMEy

05-01-2008 18:10:35




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to Hugh Mackay, 05-01-2008 16:50:15  
I thought you might get in on this, Hugh. Part of the reason I made sure to spell out Saint John! ;8^)

I'm in Maine, about halfway betwen Belfast and Bangor.

Appreciate your thoughts. She is gettin a good flow. It's a new rebuild and I think you and the others are right on the mark. She just needs to be worked with new gas and new plugs. I just can't get over how bad this gas is. Fresh from the pump, into the can and into the garden tractor, I've had my fuel line freeze up while blowin' snow, and I'm one to fill my tank when I'm done runnin' to keep the condensation to a minimum.

She hasn't even been worked hard enough or run long enough yet to seat the rings in my opinion. I bumped into a fella today who does a lot of hayin' around the neighborhood. If I don't find some good work for the old girl between now and the first cuttin', he's got about sixty acres along my road or out at the end of it that I can rake for him.
That oughta make her feel better.

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Hugh Mackay

05-01-2008 19:30:09




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 05-01-2008 18:10:35  
Scotty: I've travelled Maine quite a bit, when I lived in Nova Scotia. I rather liked the area up around Limestone and Presque Isle. I remember once driving into a place south of I-95, not far from the Canada border. A pulp mill town that could bring tears to your eye just being on main street. Might have been Lincolin. I remember Belfast, can't place it geographically, is that down on the old Airline Route No. 9?

Do Maine and Nova Scotia still have the International Ox Pull. Last I heard that event was in trouble taking Ox teams across the border. I saw that event a few times, those guys were better actors than wrestlers. I remember one team taking a pull, almost faltered. While the workers were adding 400#, the teamster got down eyeball to eyeball with with each ox, gave them a lecture, you'd swear was coming out af a law professor at law school. After that was over the oxen pulled the drag with ease, with 400# added. Maybe some of these tractor pullers could learn a lesson from this.

I think if you get the B some work exercise, you'll see an improvment. I know a good workout helps my tractors, and I work them quite hard and often. My 140 had much the same winter as your B. I syphoned most of the gas to my 1/2 full truck then added the fresh to tractor. That first day I was pulling my S tine cultivator with an I beam levelling plank. Quite regularly I was lugging it hard enough in 2nd gear to cut RPMs by 40%. After about two days it came around. The mussle of these old tractors are much like ours, "use it or loose it."

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ScottyHOMEy

05-01-2008 19:45:06




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to Hugh Mackay, 05-01-2008 19:30:09  
Heheheh! Stinkin' Lincoln it's called.

The Airline ends as you come into the north end of Brewer, the city across the river from Bangor. Belfast is on US Rte. 1, mebbe 30 miles down from Bangor, far enough down the Penobscot that it's the Bay by then, instead of the River as it goes through Bangor. The line between the river and the bay is just below Bucksport, where I lived my last stint up here.

Don't know for sure about an international ox pull. I do remember some years back when my pipe band went over to Yarmuth on the old Bluenose as part of a sister city thing between Yarmouth, NS and Ellsworth, ME. Some sort of civic festival going on in Yarmouth at the time that included an ox pull, and I do recall some of the drovers havin' "a way" with their teams that was quite entertainin'.

Whew! That takes me back a while!

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Hugh Mackay

05-02-2008 02:43:39




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 05-01-2008 19:45:06  
Scotty: Takes us both back awhile.

The International Ox pull was held rotating one year in NS and ME. Supposedly it was the 1/2 dozen top teams from ME against the 1/2 top teams from NS. In NS it was always held in Bridgewater. I know there is a Bridgewater ME, but I'm not certain that is the ME home base of the event. It took some stretch of the imagination to call it an International event. Actually one would be closer if they called it a family reunion, all the participants being German descendants that immigrated to NS and ME in the 1890s

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Bringselpup

05-01-2008 15:04:05




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Change C to S :twisted:



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Dave H (MI)

05-01-2008 12:40:25




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
They say there is a first time for everything. Well, here is a first. ME responding to YOUR post. Here is my experience with the MTA which is my hard working hay tractor. First, in my experience, NO tractor likes to sit. They likes to work. Second, both of my Farmalls will tend to run a little rough in the Spring. Moderate load and burning off of the remainder of the storage gas seems to work fine when followed by the usual summer's heavy work with fresh gas. Nothing good comes from sitting. By late Spring we are purring again.

Hey I saw your gov on the news today. Looks like floods up north of you. As a follicly challenged individual meself I got a kick out of his last name. Just cannot remember what came after B-a-l-d...

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ScottyHOMEy

05-01-2008 14:51:05




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to Dave H (MI), 05-01-2008 12:40:25  
The correct name is Baldacci. We have other, more colorful ways of referring to him.



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ScottyHOMEy

05-01-2008 10:42:13




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 Thanks all! in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
New plugs seem to be a given. Think I'll dump the D21s and try one of the Autolites (well four actually!) and work on the rest from there.



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evielboweviel

05-01-2008 08:27:44




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
fresh plugs
fresh gas with seafoam
cover radiator
take her for a long drive
Ron



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Farmer Bob

05-01-2008 07:45:49




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
You may also try changing the condensor in the mag. At one time it was considered that condensors were either good or bad. I've experienced condensors that were in between and sure can cause your engine to run rough and have no power.



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riverbend

05-01-2008 05:42:37




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Does your gas come blended with ethanol ? If not try a bottle of gas drier. I had a similar problem with a bike that stood out in a driving rain. Low speed was fine, but when it started to suck up a lot of gas, it would get some water and cause a stumble.

Greg



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Bringselpup

05-01-2008 03:16:06




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  

ScottyHOMEy said: I bought a Zenith to replace it at the time I rebuilt the motor


Hey neighbor! Where did you get the Zenith?



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ScottyHOMEy

05-01-2008 10:45:32




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to Bringselpup, 05-01-2008 03:16:06  
They're not hard to come by. IIRC, the one that works is #14007, but I may be disrememberin' that. They sell 'em on this site. I'm thinkin' I may have got mine from Glen Mlnarik at Little Red Tractor Company.



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gene bender

05-01-2008 00:50:49




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
If you pull the plugs i will bet they are black from the starting and stoping. I would put a new set in and go for a hours drive at full throttle in 4th. Tractors were made to work and starting and stoping just to get them warmed up can foul plugs. I like to pull the plugs after we get home from our three day tractor ride to see how clean they are not all black.



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Patrick Martin

05-01-2008 00:28:53




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
If you're running a aftermarket coil and have been over some rough terrain then check it. I've "rattled" some coils to death and they've done similar.



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BillfromIL

04-30-2008 20:47:23




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
What spark plugs are you running? Champions? If so here is a tip change to Motorcraft or AC Delco. Also go up one heat range, there putting more oil in gas for detonation than they use to. It fouls plugs real quick. I used to think spark plugs were all the same, not so, it takes a bunch more kilovolts to fire a Champion. We use to have a MM Z when I was younger, say 40 years ago. That old tractor would start running bad, back fire, miss ect. Dad would go to town come back with a new set of Champions and we would run'er another 6 months, then do it all over again. I was going out one saturday night,(drag racing), with my ole 67 chevelle. I was at my brothers garage, one of his mechanics was watching me. He walked over and said what are you putt'in Champions in that for. I said spark plugs is spark plugs. He made me a bet. He handed me one motorcraft plug and said you put her anywhere and I'll tell you where it's at on the Sun Scope with the hood closed. He did! It took almost a 1/3 less kilovolts to fire the Motorcraft. Went home changed the Z over to AC Delco and we never changed a plug in it again. Try it. I used to work for a small engine distributor, we sold tons of Champions every year for people to change their mower plugs. I use Motorcraft, same plugs for 3 years change them out of guilt rather than need. Try it it works! My two cents!

Bill

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Bryan Monaco

05-01-2008 07:17:51




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to BillfromIL, 04-30-2008 20:47:23  
Just another odd spark plug story that shows how different plugs can be. A few years ago a guy brought his 82 Mazda RX7 into the shop. It was running rough. He said he just tuned it up and it ran worse. He installed some fancy duel electrode plugs. Not being a whiz on those Mazda rotary engines I talked to a friend who has been a Mazda tech for close to 30 years and he said use the cheapest plugs you can find and that will fix it. Sure enough that car liked the cheap plugs. Not a tractor story, but goes to show you are always learning in the repair business.

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U. P.- MI

04-30-2008 20:13:06




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Check your float level. sounds like it may be set too low.



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ScottyHOMEy

04-30-2008 20:29:38




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to U. P.- MI, 04-30-2008 20:13:06  
Thanks, Youpee. I didn't put in in the post, but that's been on my mind, too. Not so much the float, but the needle. I've stayed away from that only because she ran so well for quite a while before acting up, and I'd think that staying wet would help, not hinder, the seat of the needle.

The old carb was beyond salvation, and I bought a Zenith to replace it at the time I rebuilt the motor, thinking I'd have her painted and running in short order. The best laid plans . . . I'd assume the float level to be good on a new carb, but if the problem doesn't burn itself out, I'll be looking at the teat on the float needle, and check the level out while I'm in there.

Many thanks!

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the tractor vet

04-30-2008 19:56:38




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Stale gas maybe a bit of dirt got into the stand pipe on the sediment bowl and is restricting fuel flow . maybe some dirt moisture in the carb. And just maybe a coil heading south .



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ScottyHOMEy

04-30-2008 20:12:11




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to the tractor vet, 04-30-2008 19:56:38  
Hadn't thought about the standpipe. If this doesn't straighten out soon, I'll drop the bowl and blow that out. I think it's probably alright, though, as I can now and then see the gas swirling in the bowl when I crank her up. Or maybe that swirslin' is a sign that it's plugged???

You mentioned the coil. It's got a mag, but I'll allow it may be the coil or even the magnets in there, too, even though it "feels" like a fuel problem. I can check that out.

'Preciate your help!

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dave guest

04-30-2008 19:55:59




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
I had a Honda motorcycle that wouldn't start on gas 6 weeks old. Drained it, looked nasty. New gas runs like a scalded dog. Never saw this until last year.



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ScottyHOMEy

04-30-2008 20:01:27




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to dave guest, 04-30-2008 19:55:59  
Winter before last was the first I ever had a problem about wet gas. Got an awful fear we might be into a trend. 8<(



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garytomaszewski

04-30-2008 19:40:50




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 04-30-2008 19:21:36  
Somehow this gas doesn't "last" as well, try draining and run her on "fresh" gas, at least you'll know if that was the problem. Sure sounds like it if you are getting that varnish smell. Then just blend in with fresh fuel.



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Bryan Monaco

05-01-2008 07:20:31




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 Re: Bad fuel or what? in reply to garytomaszewski, 04-30-2008 19:40:50  
Winter blends tend not to go well into summer months. Summer blends going into winter work better. Fresh gas is always a good idea. I am always finding small engines in the trash that only needed fresh gas to get going.



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