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:

656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only?

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TX656

05-10-2008 06:52:33




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I plumbed the remote back to itself with a 6' line and two quick connects (in an attempt to find out why this tractor will not work consistently with a loader). When I push remote lever forward there is tiny decrease in rpm, hose jumps and pressures up, ALL SEEMS WELL.
When I pull remote lever back to supply pressure to opposite quick connect engine really lugs down, and governor kicks in, NOT CORRECT.

What would cause this? (I get the full 1600 PSI on each coupler when measured with a gauge plumbed to either quick connect.) Have recently replaced old 17 GPM Cessna pump with a new one. Made a WORLD of difference with the steering and the growling noise under my feet is gone.
Can't tell you if the remotes ever worked properly because I didn't have anything to hook them up to until now. They will be used for 605F Vermeer (w/splitter), standard 3x8" lift cylinder, and hopefully the loader.

Loader is completely disconnected from everything, (it was plumbed to the remotes.) Thank you for any experience and assistance. It's a beautiful day in Texas for working on tractors.

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charles todd

05-15-2008 18:38:28




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 Re: TX656 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine...... in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Check around and get back with me. Both of mine are the "inside" valves and use the bypass endcap. I bought the red valves because I missed out on the yellow. Besides, the yellows were probably from an industrial and may or may not have had heavy use. I was going to rebuild a place on EBAY as a complete set of two wih the end plate. If you are REALLY INTERESTED, I suppose I can get rid of one and keep the other as a spare for myself :lol:
Charles

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TX656

05-14-2008 20:30:09




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 Re: TX656 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine...... in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
I think Red. I thought I had bookmarked them in 'my ebay' but nothing came up. I'm going to hit the salvage yards via phone tomorrow to see who might have the inside remote and what it's going to cost.



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charles todd

05-14-2008 19:54:43




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 TX656 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine...... in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
TX656, were the remotes you saw/bid on EBAY red or yellow? Just curious... As for the PM, I have never used it, but do not think I have it blocked.



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TX656

05-10-2008 23:10:13




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Charles, I was just trying to pm you but got a "Private messaging is currently under construction" error? I wanted to ask you about your 'surplus' remotes. Let me know when you get closer to selling them. I have been half heartedly looking around for some, missed bidding on one set on ebay a couple months ago.
Love the pictures. I'm so glad its green again. April/May = best months to be down South. There are some pics of my 656/Koyker somewhere in the archives (I suppose if you search for posts by user?) Until I find weights I'll do what you did and slap the heaviest thing I have on the back.

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charles todd

05-10-2008 22:55:55




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Glad to hear of your success! Quick-Couplings can and will fail when least expected. I searched in a 60 mile radius for replacement Pioneer/Safeway couplers and found them at the last place I looked, the NH dealer 5 miles away from home, same place I bought my Koyker 220 loader.

As for the "ballast" issue, I cannot find rear weights localy (Northwest Louisiana and have not looked too hard). So... I use this, Alamo specs say 1035 LBS.

third party image

While I have Photobucket open, here is my Koyker 220,

third party image

Once again, the small things will cause the largest burns. Here is some burn cream (that is what we say to each other at work). :lol:
Charles

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TX656

05-10-2008 22:38:40




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Short Version = It was the female part of the quick connect.

Long Version
I checked up on Jim's idea first. Couldn't find anything like that in the IH shop manual or IH parts book so punted on that.

Since my 656 does not have an optional check valve assembly all I could think to do was dissamble the remote valve. Took it off, tore it down, it looked great inside (which of course dissapointed me.) I cleaned and reassembled it (put in some new o-rings, had to reuse others.)

After reinstalling the valve I started up the tractor and when I operated the levers and fluid sprayed out around the valves at high pressure when I operated the remote lever in either direction. I figured 'Replacement o-rings NOT working well.'
Got off the tractor and found I'd forgotten to reattach the metal lines at the bottom of the remote! I start to cheer up because for the first time I can demonstrate great pressure and flow from BOTH valve outlets. Not much between the remote valve and the quick connects except the manifold so I switch the hose running from the manifold to the quick connects and my problem switches to the other outlet! Could it be this simple?
So off I go to Tractor Supply already knowing they will not actually have a tractor part in stock. Sure enough I get the back of the store and the part I need is out of stock. I went up front to ask if they have any unstocked hydraulic parts in back. They say 'nope' (and of course don't offer to help since it's a tractor part and not bird seed) so I trek to the back of the store again to see if I can rig something else up...and there, hidden behind the selection of Cross valves, fallen from its perch, is the part I need!
I get back home and am in the process of installing the new part when my wife (who was dutifully checking the board all replies all day) comes out to the shop and says "Tractor Vet says its your quick connect." I attached the new female Pioneer fitting, connected the loader, fired her up and IT WORKED AWESOME! Went over to a pile of sand, filled the bucket and up she went. In the past it wouldn't raise an empty bucket consistently. (Anybody know of a good source for rear wheel weights in Texas? Now that the loader works I'll need some.)

I have been fighting this hydraulic problem for almost one year and I think it was a big part of the reason the previous owner dumped the tractor. I say that because the loader is a Koyker 500 which apparently hasn't been made for quite a while and the loader has almost no wear. Well, that and the needed engine overhaul but I'll post on that this fall :D

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charles todd

05-10-2008 21:33:10




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
One day I will learn how to post in Modern View...

If it is like the '06 series (like my 504) the valve(s) are on the right hand side, under the seat. These valves have a "float" position all the way forward. You may not notice this because the detent balls, spring, and unlatching piston are stuck from rust and corrosion. These parts are not in oil and are behind the "pipe nipple" screwed into the rear of the valve.
Valve on Bench
third party image

Valve Mounted
third party image

third party image

I rebuilt my valves and now they will lock in the rear, forward, and float positions. When I am using my loader and want to apply down pressure, I have to be careful. There is a VERY short throw on these valves and sometimes I hit float and loose PSI.
Try this; push the lever forward a small bit and watch the gauge, then a little more, then a little more. You should see the PSI load up then drop while preforming this exercise. If it is stalling, the relief may be sticking or the check ball in the valve is stuck.
Valve Parts Diagram
third party image

If I can be of further help, email is always open. I learned a lot during the rebuild of these valves. I have two more I plan to rebuild a sell at a later date.

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charles todd

05-10-2008 21:28:53




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
If it is like the '06 series (like my 504) the valve(s) are on the right hand side, under the seat. These valves have a "float" position all the way forward. You may not notice this because the detent balls, spring, and unlatching piston are stuck from rust and corrosion. These parts are not in oil and are behind the "pipe nipple" screwed into the rear of the valve.

Valve on Bench

Link

Valve Mounted

Link

Link

I rebuilt my valves and now they will lock in the rear, forward, and float positions. When I am using my loader and want to apply down pressure, I have to be careful. There is a VERY short throw on these valves and sometimes I hit float and loose PSI.

Try this; push the lever forward a small bit and watch the gauge, then a little more, then a little more. You should see the PSI load up then drop while preforming this exercise. If it is stalling, the relief may be sticking or the check ball in the valve is stuck.

Valve Parts Diagram

Link

If I can be of further help, email is always open. I learned a lot during the rebuild of these valves. I have two more I plan to rebuild a sell at a later date.

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the tractor vet

05-10-2008 16:38:22




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
I think that you will find that one of the quick couplers is bad or the male end is bad . For the cost of two new couplers and male ends change them and see if this is your problem , i am betting that is your problem.



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TX656

05-10-2008 09:06:20




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Thanks, I'll check that. Since I first posted I have been out trying more things.
I took off one of the quick connect tips so I had an open hose on one end. Put the open end in a bucket. Tried the remote and fluid pumped into the bucket about like a garden hose 1/2 open. I was expecting more. I stopped after about 1.5 gallons. Poured fluid back into tractor and tried again. Same thing. Switched to other outlet, same thing...and then everything changed. Finally PRESSURE!

The hose flew out of the bucket pumped about the same 1 gallon in about 1 second. It covered the workshop wall up to about 10', toolbox, floor etc.

What is this all a sign of? Did some obstruction in the valve finally break lose? Is this a sign of internal valve problems and should I tear it down? Should I see if 'results' are repeatable? Thanks everyone.

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Janicholson

05-10-2008 09:35:40




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 09:06:20  
Check the switch I mentioned, then give it a test on load you intend to use it for. elief valves and check valves do stick. JimN



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Janicholson

05-10-2008 08:40:42




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to TX656, 05-10-2008 06:52:33  
Check the hydraulic "switch" on the end of the valve opposite the lever. This switch controls single acting, or double acting. It rotates in place, and has a sheet metal clip over a roll pin to limit its travel. I think CCW is double acting. JimN



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Owen Aaland

05-10-2008 15:04:16




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to Janicholson, 05-10-2008 08:40:42  

Janicholson said: (quoted from post at 08:40:42 05/10/08) Check the hydraulic "switch" on the end of the valve opposite the lever. This switch controls single acting, or double acting. It rotates in place, and has a sheet metal clip over a roll pin to limit its travel. I think CCW is double acting. JimN


The 656 uses the newer valves like the 806. There is no switch to turn. Instead there is a rod that loops around to limit the travel of the valve spool to block out the float position. If you do not have pressure in the lever forward position you may be going to far and getting into the float position.

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Janicholson

05-13-2008 06:45:33




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 Re: 656 w/single remote lugs engine in 1 position only? in reply to Owen Aaland, 05-10-2008 15:04:16  
Thanks, I didn't know the model break. Jim



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