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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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compression test results

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Bill , Calif

06-22-2004 14:27:15




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Recent discussion on this subject prompted me to test my TE20 to determine the engine condition. After a two minute idle run,I pulled all the plugs and got these results- 1 thru 4. 93, 95, 105 and 115. I am at 2300 feet altitude and at 6.5 to 1 compression ratio, I figure the best I should see is 95 PSI with near perfect rings and valves. I attribute the higher readings to carbon deposits in the head and on the pistons. What say you??

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Max

07-26-2004 08:16:33




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 Re: compression test results in reply to Bill , Calif, 06-22-2004 14:27:15  
Hi Everybody,
I have a related question for the obviously intelligent responders here. I was asked to rebuild a TO35 for a friend which had weak compression on one cylinder. The first three had around 100-110 psi, but the last was at 60. I added oil to the cylinder, and that bumped all four up by about 5psi. A-Ha, I thought - easy valve regrind/replacement if necessary.

Well, I started the process, and my friend said "Since you have it open, let's put in new valves for all cylinders." Never should have listened to him, but I did... In the process I reused those cute little buttons on the tops of the valve stems - which according to other posts on this forum may not be necessary any more. Don't know if that made a difference or not.

Buttoned it back up, torqued the head up to 80, and on the first pass up to 90 I stripped a head nut - one of the old crusty ones outside the valve cover. I replaced the stud and nut, and left the whole thing torqued to 84 for an initial test - gapped the valves at .015 cold and now my compression is between 45 and 65 on all four - although the original cylinder is now one of the high values. That's my first question: what's the proper torque for the Z134 engine? This also brings up my second question: What am I missing that caused such a precipitous drop on compression?

I lapped the valves, but did not actually regrind the seats. However, I did get a nice matte ring on the valves and the seats also looked appropriately polished. Haven't had a problem with this in the past, however.

I didn't blow any bubbles (a la a warped head leaking coolant) and all of the valve springs appeared to have good tension. I didn't actually check the compression resistance, however.

Those are about the only things I can think of which would cause such a dramatic drop in the compression, although I'm not necessarily the brightest bulb on the christmas tree at times.

I'm flummoxed, and I feel like a chump - up until this point in time my experience has been olivers, caterpillars, and JD's, and this tractor is beating me so far. Any and all thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time,
Max

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Jerry/MT

06-22-2004 17:48:15




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 Re: compression test results in reply to Bill , Calif, 06-22-2004 14:27:15  
How did you figure that the best you could see was 95 psi? Remember that compression ratio is not a pressure ratio;it is a volume ratio. It is the volume at BDC divided by the volume at TDC. The relationship for an ideal compression is P2/p1 =(V1/V2)^k where the exponent k for standard air is 1.4. that would say that if the ambient pressure was 14.7 psia and you did an ideal compression, the pressure on the guage would be 187.3 psi. ( 14.7 X ((6.5)^1.4)) -14.7 = 187.3 psi) Now in the engine you don't have an ideal compression and you don't have ideal air,and the valves aren't closed through the whole compression and there is a pressure drop due to friction in the intake system, etc so you don't measure this high a value. Did you do your compression check with the throttle wide open? That's the correct way. If you squirt a little oil in the cylinder and recheck the compression it will almost always be a little higher.

Hope this helps.

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Bill , Calif

06-23-2004 12:49:04




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 Re: Re: compression test results in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-22-2004 17:48:15  
Hey Jerry---do you work for NASA or is rocket science just a hobby!!! I too will print out your answer. I understand the volume ratio and that throttle position and valve timeing also have an effect but I just took 14.5 times 6.5 and got about 95 PSI. I cranked it till the pressure stopped increasing and figured that if it held over 90PSI it must be in pretty good shape internally. My concern (question) was why are two cylinders unusually high in pressure. A shaved head would affect all cylinders alike, so what do you think of the carbon buildup theory? Those two plugs were black and contained some carbon. Has anyone else ever seen pressures like 183?
Forgive my joking Jerry. I do appreciate your reply as well as the others who replyed.
My next input will concern my oil pressure!

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Opps....Jerry/MT

06-23-2004 17:48:56




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 Re: Re: Re: compression test results in reply to Bill , Calif, 06-23-2004 12:49:04  
I forgot to try to answer the rest of your questions! It's not the high pressures you worry about, it's the low ones. That's what I was refering to in my previous reply. The fact that the same two plugs were black and had some carbon on them could imply that those two cylinders had carbon in them. It could also imply bad plug wires, fuel/air ratio maldistribution (richer in those cylinders) caused by manifold leakage. It's really hard to say. (Make sure your ignition is OK before screwing around with your carburetion.)

Regarding the ideal pressure, as I implied before, the ideal equation for the pressure rise due to compression assumes a constant mass in the cylinder for pure air initially at atmosperic pressure. Unless you took the air induction system off (i.e. removed everything between the the out side air and the intake valve, fully closed all the valves after the intake stroke, had no valve leakage and had a perfect head gasket, you won't begin to approach this pressure. My guess is the best you'll ever see on a compression test is around 120 psi for these 6.5:1 compression ratio engines.

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Jerry/MT

06-23-2004 16:50:59




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 Re: Re: Re: compression test results in reply to Bill , Calif, 06-23-2004 12:49:04  
I worked as a Propulsion Engineer in the aircraft industry for over 34 years. My work related more to modern aircraft propulsion systems (aircraft gas turbines, or "jet engines" as they are commonly called) than to the older piston engines, but I was always facinated by piston engines and I try to get a better understanding of them because I use tractors on my ranch. And I used to me a member of the aircraft propulsion industry advisory committee to NASA Aeronautics. Thanks for the comments on my reply. I always try to answer a question with the correct technical facts so the reader can understand the "why of it".
Regarding your different cylinder pressures, yeah it can be carbon deposits, but it could be valve adjustments or valve leakage as well as a head gasket leak between cylinders.

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txblu

06-23-2004 10:50:42




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 Re: Re: compression test results in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-22-2004 17:48:15  
Like your answer. I like to answer like that as I like to know, and feel others might want to know, how to figure answers to questions; or what does it take to make the answer. Never like a "just because" answer, course sometimes that's all you can get and have to live with it (or ignore) until you can get the facts.

Additionally, it helps you (me) to catch yourself if you make a mistake.

Mark

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Barry from Stirling

06-23-2004 04:39:07




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 Re: Re: compression test results in reply to Jerry/MT, 06-22-2004 17:48:15  
Morning Everyone
Thats the most technical answer to a post I have read in my life. I am going to print it off and use it when I do a compression test on my TEA-20 next time. Still trying to figure out what Jerry said, but non the less a great post. A bit early in the morning tho.



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Jim W

06-22-2004 14:57:27




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 Re: compression test results in reply to Bill , Calif, 06-22-2004 14:27:15  
Another possibility is that the head was resurfaced at some point in the past, thus raising the compression ratio.
Jim



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