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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Is a resistor required??

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bdn

07-11-2006 08:06:23




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Hello All

Do I need to put a resistor between my coil and my points? If so what type is best to install?




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bdn

07-13-2006 04:49:02




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to bdn, 07-11-2006 08:06:23  
Thanks for all the information guys, guess I will try not using one and see what happens.
Barney



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Bob

07-13-2006 07:27:55




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to bdn, 07-13-2006 04:49:02  
If you are using a 6-Volt coil and converting to 12-Volts, DEFINITELY use a ballast resistor, but put it between the ignition switch and the coil.

Too much resistance will cause a weak spark, possibly hard starting or poor running.

Not using a resistor when needed is asking for coil trouble, and burnt breaker points.



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Jerry/MT

07-11-2006 14:06:53




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to bdn, 07-11-2006 08:06:23  
Unless you have what I call a "half breed" ignition system, i.e. a 12V ignition supply system with a 6V coil, your ignition resistance is built ito the 12 V coil(in most cases). If you have an honest to gosh 12V ignition system, the proper 12V coil with a 12 Volt system or a 6 V coil with a 6 volt system you do not need a reistor in the primary igntion circuit. The reason you need a resistor with the "half breed" system is the coil current driven by 12V is roughly twice as high as what the 6 V coil is designed for and causes the coil to overheat and it shorts internally when the insulation melts. The points will burn out faster also.
Hope this helps.

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Bob

07-11-2006 10:21:31




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to bdn, 07-11-2006 08:06:23  
You NEVER put a resistor (if needed) between the coil and the points, ALWAYS between the ignition switch and the coil. There are technical reasons to do this, involving not wanting the resistor between the coil and the condensor, but to keep it simple, it is better for a HOT spark, and long point life if the resistor (if needed) is NOT between the coil and the breaker points/condensor.

ALL OEM systems using a ballast resistor, (NO exceptions that I know of), have the ballast resistor between the ignition switch and the coil.

How do you know if a resistor is needed?

Well, if you have an accurate Ohmmeter, you can measure the primary resistance of the coil.

You want to see at least 3 to 3.5 Ohms, up to 4 Ohms, otherwise add a ballast resistor, so the combined resistance of the ballast resistor AND the coil primary is up in the 3+, up to nearly 4 Ohms range.

If you run a low-resistance coil, on a 12-volt system, without a ballast resistor, the coil will run HOT, probably eventually fail, and breaker point life will be SHORT.

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Jerry/MT

07-12-2006 11:04:20




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to Bob, 07-11-2006 10:21:31  
Respectfully, why do you say that you can't put the resistor between the coil and the distributor? It's a series circuit so what difference will it make to do so? It will still limit the circuit current and protect the coil from overheating and keep the points from burning.



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Bob

07-12-2006 23:57:39




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to Jerry/MT, 07-12-2006 11:04:20  
Jerry,

Are you familiar with ignition waveforms, as seen on an ignition oscilloscope?

When the breaker points open, and spark occurs, the coil and condensor form a sort of simple resonant tank circuit, and several ocillations occur AFTER the initial spark, due to the actions of the coil's inductance, and the condensor's capacitance.

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The coil oscillations are seen at the left of center, as the waveform that tapers off, after the "spark line".

It is undesirable to have resistance between the coil and condensor, because it would dampen these oscillations, and make the spark weaker.

When you test an ignition condensor on a tester, one of the tests is for lead resistance, and the capacitor will fail the test if an internal poor connection causes excess resistance.

Adding the ballast resistor between the coil and distributor would have the same effect as a capacitor that would fail the lead resistance test.

Believe this, or not, as you choose, but I feel there is valid reason NOT to put the resistance between the coil and the distributor, and every single factory system I've ever seen that uses a ballast resistor places it between the ignition switch and the coil, NEVER after the coil, so I have to assume the factory engineers think there was a valid reason to set it up that way, too!

Go ahead, and set your's up as you choose... there's always a contrarian in every bunch.

Most likely, it will work just fine, and you will say "AHA"... my way worked, and I agree with you that it will, but there is the advantage of a slightly "hotter" spark doing it the conventional way, and, likely, breaker point life will be a little better, as the condensor will be able to better do it's job.

Remember, energy "bounced" back into the coil by the condensor equals a "hotter" spark, while energy dissipated as heat by an arc across the breaker points is wasted as heat at the points, and anything that affects the designed relationship between the coil and the condensor is likely to cause MORE arcing across the points, as they open.

Good luck!

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Jerry/MT

07-13-2006 12:39:48




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to Bob, 07-12-2006 23:57:39  
Thanks for your technical reply. You claim it's the dynamics of the circuit that causes the problem with a resistor between the coil.Do you happen to have a waveform of high resistance between the coil and the points? See, your wave forms shows the main spark itself, (if I understand the plot correctly) and the "ringing" (the resonant response) is well after the plug has fired, so forgive me if I don't understand how the spark is hotter by this arrangement.The amplitude of the resonant response about a third of the spark voltage so in all likely hood it wouldn't even cause the plug to fire a secondary spark. I would think that all that the higher resistance would cause is for the peak amplitude of the resonant response to be less and the die out in that response would be quicker. I can't fault your arguement that all the resistors in car and tractor ignition circuits have the reisitance between the key and the coil. I just don't understand the signicance of your argument for the reasons I stated. I'm not trying to start a big argument, I'm just trying to understand the why's of this situation.

PS. I'm don't think I'm a "contrarian". I just had an honest question about your statement.

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Jerry/MT

07-13-2006 12:35:52




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to Bob, 07-12-2006 23:57:39  
Thanks for your technical reply. You claim it's the dynamics of the circuit that causes the problem with a resistor between the coil.Do you happen to have a waveform of high resistance between the coil and the points? See, your wave forms shows the main spark itself, (if I understand the plot correctly) and the "ringing" (the resonant response) is well after the plug has fired, so forgive me if I don't understand how the spark is hotter by this arrangement.The amplitude of the resonant response about a third of the spark voltage so in all likely hood it wouldn't even cause the plug to fire a secondary spark. I would think that all that the higher reisitance would cause is for the peak amplitude of the resonant response to be less and the die out in that response would be quicker. I can't fult your arguement that all the reistors in car and tractor ignition circuits have the reisitance between the key and the coil. I just don't understand the signicance of your argument for the reasons I stated. I'm not trying to start a big argument, I'm just trying to understand the why's of this situation.

PS. I'm don't think I'm a "contrarian". I just had an honest question about your statement.

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big jt

07-11-2006 09:42:53




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to bdn, 07-11-2006 08:06:23  
Now you have gone a done it. Opened up a real can of worms. I have three tractors that have a 12V conversion and no resistor. One is still on the same set of points condensor and coil since I did the conversion nearly 20 years ago.

If you are having ignition problems look to the resistor first. Over volt can cause the coil to overheat.

Try it without and if you have problems try one.

jt

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souNdguy

07-11-2006 12:53:06




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to big jt, 07-11-2006 09:42:53  
No problems with a 12v conversion if you used a 12v coil, and -no- resistor.

real 12v coils are cheap.. 16$.. etc..

Soundguy



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big jt

07-11-2006 22:07:05




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to souNdguy, 07-11-2006 12:53:06  
Hi souNdguy

Actually I did my conversions on 2 WD 45 Allis' and a Silver King.

Didn't even switch the coil and works ok.

One of those is a Mower tractor that gets a couple of hours run time every week this time of year IF WE GET RAIN:<(

jt



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souNdguy

07-12-2006 11:13:53




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to big jt, 07-11-2006 22:07:05  
Some 6v coils are built better than others. However.. running 12v on a 6v coils is a tad hard on the points. The fact that it gets run for only a few hours at a time may be why it is lasting... the coil has a cool down period.

Soundguy



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big jt

07-12-2006 23:07:42




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 Re: Is a resistor required?? in reply to souNdguy, 07-12-2006 11:13:53  
Whole heartedly agree with you on coil quality. The one I run for a couple of hours at a crack also gets pushed. WD 45 w D17 engine and a 72 inch deck.

Of course if I need a new coil in the future it will be replaced with a 12V.

You are also correct that the points and condensor are being taxed a little harder with my set up but it works.

The other side of that engine is also modified. Underslung exhaust on a tractor that never had it available to my knowledge.

jt

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