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Standard Engine - trying to track down noises

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motorv8N

10-30-2007 04:14:03




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Hi again -- still pondering a 1951 TEA 20 after a visit on the weekend.

The tractor looks quite good owing to hard work the previous owner did last winter to remove the half-century of crud built up on the machine. He's also replaced a lot of parts such as the water pump, rad, brakes, ignition components, etc. The tin is very straight and corrosion free and even his paint job isn't bad.

He states he hasn't delved into the innards of the machine, however, and a test drive turned up a slight knock on the manifold side that sounds like it's coming from the top of the engine, possibly toward the front. To me it sounds heavier than valve train clatter but the issue is complicated by a bad muffler and a welded exhaust manifold in the same area making for a fair amount of distracting background noise. The noise is not coming from the bottom of the block as far as I can tell. It is also a noise that wasn't there during the five or so minutes I had it running before the ride, instead becoming prominent after about five minutes of driving.

So, my question is, are these engines prone to any particular area of wear and noise? The motor puts out a short puff of black smoke when goosed but definitely no blue. The coolant and oil are clean and compression is 115, 110, 110, 115 across the board. Power seems good although the idle is a little lumpy with the odd backfire.

This machine has a lot to recommend it in other areas but I can't shake the nagging feeling it doesn't sound quite right. Never having heard one of these run before (you'll remember I started out hunting Ford 8s) I've got nothing in my experience to compare it to.

And for bonus marks -- how serious an issue is the transmission case corrosion I've heard about?

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motorv8N

11-05-2007 19:16:21




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to MeeWee, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  

Bob (Aust) said: (quoted from post at 10:30:46 11/05/07) If I can help you feel free to email: bfulton@goldenwest.org.au

I'm no expert on Fergies - or Jags - but I have heaps of photos during the restoration of my TEA20 which I'm happy to share with you.

:D

Bob in Oz!


Thanks very much Bob -- if I end up with a Fergie you will be getting a mail as fast as I can get back to the computer!

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Bob (Aust)

11-05-2007 01:30:46




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
If I can help you feel free to email: bfulton@goldenwest.org.au

I'm no expert on Fergies - or Jags - but I have heaps of photos during the restoration of my TEA20 which I'm happy to share with you.

:D

Bob in Oz!



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motorv8N

11-04-2007 20:14:27




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Gorgeous car. I'm a 1966 Series 1 myself, but don't attract nearly the attention from the ladies as that I'll bet! third party image

Thanks again for the information on the TEA.



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Bob (Aust)

11-04-2007 12:06:16




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Sparex list a crank shaft (80/85/87mm cylinder bore) for the TEA20 as Part No 42688 as replacement for manufacturer Part No 825216M1. I doubt you would need it.

There are very few Ferguson TEA20 parts that are not available.[/url]



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Bob (Aust)

11-04-2007 11:15:43




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
This site:

[quote:6f71946869]Engine Overhaul Kit, 85mm Standard Gas - Major Engine Overhaul Kit. 4 CYL, STD BORE: 3.346" (85MM) Includes: Pistons, Sleeves, Rings, pins, retainers, overhaul gasket set, front and rear main seals, main bearings(STD, .010, .020, .030) and connecting rod bearings (STD, .010, .020, .030) Specify bearing sizes in comments section when ordering. For the following tractors: TEA20, TED20 (Part No: OK85MM)[/quote:6f71946869]

All that for US$360!

I'm sure new crank shafts are available but I doubt you would need one. My crank shaft was perfect after 50 years and you still have the option, probably cheaper, of having the crank machined.

I found the original Ferguson parts are far better quality than the after market parts currently available. Keep the original part where ever possible.

My other "tractor":

third party image

1966 Series 1 4.2 liter Jaguar E Type 2+2.

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motorv8N

11-04-2007 06:13:17




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Thanks for that info on parts Bob -- does this mean that there are no new or reproduction crankshafts or camshafts to be had?



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greenbank

11-03-2007 18:25:41




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Bob, I have an E-Type as well as a Fergie as well.



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Bob (Aust)

11-03-2007 14:29:25




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
The Standard engine is a wet sleeve engine. Provided the crank shaft, cam shaft etc are OK, you will be able to recondition virtually back to new. Parts are available from this site or Google Sparex or Bare-Co. Everything you will need is available, after market.

I find Ferguson parts very reasonably priced compared to parts for other automotive parts, probably because they are manufactured in India I think. Compared to genuine parts for my Jaguar E Type, the Fergy is a cheap runner!
Reading these forums, the Standard engine appears to have far less problems than the Continental engine in the TE20 and TO20/30.

The US Dollar seems to be headed south at a rapid pace: a year ago an Aussie Dollar was US$0.70; today US$0.93 and expected to be one to one within a month. I suspect this will be pushing up the cost of Ferguson spares in the USA.

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motorv8N

11-03-2007 13:26:47




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Thanks for that insight into this motor, John. It certainly carries on a most cheerful racket!
I taped a minute or two on my camcorder and have been playing it back trying to further place it. I noticed for the first time today on the tape the noise has a stumbling, tripping cadence to it rather than being a rythmic, regular knocking.

I may just chance this. It's not the prospect of a pending rebuild really, it's that the motor has chewed itself up to the point the block will be useless and I'll have a hard time finding another. I suppose it's unlikely terminal damage has been done if it runs as well as it does, other than the noise.

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john(UK)

11-03-2007 12:42:20




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
The Standard engine has a couple of "quirks" that cause rattling sounds, neither cause any problems and you can carry on working with it. First if it only shows up at idling speed it could be the little-ends or wrist-pin as they call it in USA or it can be the rear bearing on the camshaft is worn, that usually shows up with a drop in oil pressure on the gauge though. From how you describe it I would think that it is the Little-ends that are rattling, you sort of confirm it when you say that it only started after you had run it five mins or so, so the engine got warm and it showed up. If it was anything serious it would be a positive knock on this engine.
The lumpy idle and the puff of smoke seems like it just needs the carb setting properly and maybe the ignition looking at....John

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motorv8N

11-03-2007 08:15:46




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Thanks for the note Bob -- I'm actually in Canada but good to know the prices of those components. Our dollar seems to be on something of a mad tear and is worth $US 1.07 at the moment. This time last year it was .92 cents and I can easily remember at .62 Canadian dollar relative to the US currency. If this keeps up I will be able to buy parts AND get paid for it!



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Bob (Aust)

11-03-2007 06:33:42




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Don't know US prices (assuming you are in the US?), but that sounds rather steep for a Ferguson with suspect engine?
Ferguson prices appear to be rising but for US$2,800 in Australia you would get a very nice TEA20, ready to work.

A full engine overhaul kit, including new pistons, rings, wet sleeve cylinders, all bearings and gaskets will set you back around US$400.



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motorv8N

11-02-2007 16:54:34




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
An update on this old TEA. I went back with a mechanic's stethoscope and tested all areas of the block and isolated the noise to the upper middle of the block in the cylinder closest to the battery. It is most definitely not a leaky manifold.

Unplugging that (or any other) spark plug made no difference to the noise at all. Nor did revving the engine up and down with all plugs in place. The knock or clatter remained at a consistent volume throughout - not deafening but certainly discernable above the noise of the exhaust. (I did have an interesting moment when the plug wire slipped out of my hand on cyl no. 2 and for a moment was arching right into the fuel line.... third party image)

Does this help anyone on a diagnosis? It's pretty clear that motor should come apart I suppose and for the $2800 the owner says is his final price(down from $3200 last visit) it seems a bit steep.
Now, the tractor comes with a seven foot adjustable snow plow. So perhaps $2500 worth of tractor he thinks he has?

As stated before it starts easily, revs without blue smoke, has 20-30 lbs of oil pressure, good clutch, hydraulics, brakes, electrics, and relatively straight tin with no filler that I can find. I did notice this time back that the one back wheel looks rather iffy and in fact he's welded a patch into a rotted out section containing the old air stem and redrilled a new one on the opposite side of the wheel.

Someone talk some sense into me. I've put some serious kilometers on my car (and marriage!) driving all over this province in search of a tractor and I'm finding my resolve weakening and standards falling. It's getting tempting to buy something, anything and getting on with the business of old tractor ownership!

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gshadel

10-30-2007 14:29:44




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
From what you've described... a heavy knock that sounds like it gets worse as the engine warms-up, (and the oil thins down), sounds like it could be either a sloppy rod bearing or wrist pin. With the rough idle & backfiring, I suppose it is possible it is a simple timing problem causing all these symptoms.

Hard to diagnose without being there, sorry , not much help. Compression looks good, black puffs of smoke sounds like the carb needs some adjusting.

If the price is right, could make a nice tractor.

George

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Bill - SC

10-30-2007 14:24:26




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
While it is knocking, pull each spark plug wire of each plug one at a time and see if the knocking stops. If it does it may indicate a problem in that particular cylinder. Such as piston slap, bad wrist pin bushing, rod bearing. With all wires on plugs rev. it up and back off on the throttle quickly and see if knock disappears. You can also take a wooden dowel, piece of broom handle will work, place one end on various parts of the engine and rest your ear on the other end and see if the knock is more pronounced in one particular area. All this is to try to gather as much info as you can to try to identify the location and what happens under certain conditions . I know the other folks on the form will have suggestions. Let us know what you find so collectively we can try to help.

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Bob (Aust)

10-30-2007 13:57:38




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 Re: Standard Engine - trying to track down noises in reply to motorv8N, 10-30-2007 04:14:03  
Timing chain or governor weights????? (The Standard engine does not have a timing chain tensioner and has been known to drop governor weights, causing varying degrees of damage inside the timing case.)

Water pump????

External transmission case corrosion? Clean, neutralise and paint.



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