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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Hydraulic Lift Trouble

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MLV

04-27-2008 17:47:33




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Greetings everyone! First time posting here, glad such a user's forum for old Ferguson's exists! I've already uncovered a wealth of helpful information from here.
Let me get to it. I aquired a 1948 Ferguson TE 20 in nice condition last fall. Everything has been great until late winter while back blading snow, I noticed the 3 Point hitch came up on it's own and would not drop. The hydraulics would bleed off on it's own after a week or so. I figured I'd wait for warmer weather and do a complete hydraulic flush/drain/clean. I've inspected all the apparatus/ fork/ linkage/ control valve as noted and suggested here at this forum. With the inspection plate open I can observe the fork/control arm moving the control valve below in and out. No broken springs everything "looks" OK.
I completely drained the hydraulics (how many drains should there be? I found three larger on the bottom, one below the pump , one below the shifter, and another below the PTO in the back. I also found two smaller drain plugs, one shorter than the other, "sideways" oriented on opposite sides and corners of the bottom pan below the hydraulic pump...whew!). I drained them all. Flushed all with diesel and sprayed around inside with a pump/hand held sprayer w/diesel. I let everything completely drain for a couple of days. Filled it up with mineral grade trans-hydraulic fluid and the same thing. 3 Point hitch moves right up smooth no problem, will not drop. It would finally drop after a couple of days, with a load on. I still have the back blade and a 200 lb timber on back, sometimes me too at 190 lbs, will not drop.
I repeated this whole process one more time, discarding all fluids and not reusing anything. Same results, however this time I have a leak. I noticed a stream of fluid coming from above one of the two sideways oriented drain plugs that I mentioned earlier, the one on the PTO lever side. It appears that it may be coming from the gasketed area of the pump pan above this plug. Obviously there is some pressure behind it, as it bled, the 3 point hitch dropped...fastest it's dropped in a while.
So I now how all the fluid drained again for a third time assuming I might have a bad gasket at the very least, but I may end up doing some pump work too. I haven't got a clue where to start from here. Any advice for an ol' farm boy?

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MLV

04-28-2008 17:26:30




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to MLV, 04-27-2008 17:47:33  
Thanks for all the tips! I ordered a manual for my tractor today.

Here we go:

John- There did not appear to be any pressure from the port I indicated on the PTO lever side. That is where the leak in the gasket was coming from (in that area of the hydraulic take-off point). I did note that this leak was under pressure emitting a small stream of hydraulic fluid "shooting" out about 5 feet into the air. When I shut the tractor down, I could hear air leaking around the resevoir fill plug. As I loosened the fill plug, air pressure was definetly being released. So my novice observation was that the hydraulic resevoir was now under pressure, something I did not notice before. The control valve is definately still solidly attached to the control fork and freely moving in and out. As I manually moved the control fork, the lift did not drop. I'll send you my email addy. I greatly appreciate any help and advice.

Jerry- I'm not sure if the control valve is FULLY moving back or not. I will check again this week and advise you as to my findings.

I can't thank everyone enough already for all the helpful advice. This forum is a great resource to us all. Thank you again!

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John (UK)

04-28-2008 11:49:45




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to MLV, 04-27-2008 17:47:33  
There are three drain plugs on this Tractor
The horizontal plugs you removed are hydraulic pressure take-off points and will only drain what is in the Pump. The gasket that is leaking, have you got the correct side, you said the PTO lever side, there is no pressure inside at that point, there is on the front one on the right side though.You will probably find that the Pump setscrews are slacker than they should be. The gasket obviously needs to be changed asap. The Hydraulics not dropping, have you checked that the Control Valve is still attached to the Control Fork that hangs down from the top. Stop the engine and feel into the oil at the bottom of the Fork and you should feel the Tee Bar between the two legs of the Fork and it should be a good tight fit or the Valve could come out. Then check that when you move the Lever the valve is moving in and out of the Pump, if it still won't drop, try moving the Control Fork gently to the Rear of the Tractor and that should make it drop. It may just be stuck or just partially. If you want the info on how to drop the Pump out, email me at:- fergusontractors@tiscali.co.uk
and I will send it, with some pictures of what you have inside....John

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MLV

04-28-2008 09:40:34




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to Jeff-oh, 04-27-2008 17:47:33  

Jerry/MT said: (quoted from post at 04:31:21 04/28/08) Those tapings on the side are test ports. You can check the relief valve setting with them. You should not open them for what you are doing, however your observation of them bleeding off the pressure and the lift dropping is another clue to the puzzle.

Based on your description, I would suspect the control valve is binding. Get the hitch to the highest position, THEN SHUT OFF THE ENGINE.(NEVER PLACE YOUR HANDS IN THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING!)

Place the control lever in the full down position and observe what happens. Then, reach over to the control fork and pull it toward the back of the tractor. Does the lift fall? If it does, you found the problem. The control valve is sticking. If it is and you are bleeding pressure from the test port and the lift drops, I"m pretty sure that your control valve is the root cause of your problem.

Changing the oil is not going to cure the problem you are experiencing. Dirty oil might have been the cause but changing the oil won"t clean any crud of the control valve.

If you are new to these tractors, I would strongy advise you to get a Ferguson Shop Manual(~$20), a TE-20 Owners Manual and and the TE-20 parts manual.( You can find these on ebay and on they are available from the parts people on this site.) Together these manuals will provide systems descriptions and exploded views of the components of the various systems so you can understand how things work and how things go together.


I did exactly as you indicated. With the lift fully raised and the inspection cover open, I moved the control lever down. Nothing happened. I then used a screwdriver to manually push the control fork toward the back of the tractor, again no movement. I drained the oil thinking crud may have been the root of the problem knowing if crud is in the control valve assembly itself it will not correct it. Not knowing how the previous owner cared for or maintained this tractor I figured it can't hurt.

I find it strange that I did not have a oil leak prior to changing the oil a second time, in my case it appears to be a pressurized stream, emitting from the gasketed area just above the "test port". When this pressure "leaks off", the lift then drops. I have not tried, nor will I without knowing just how much pressure is behind these test ports, to see if they will cause the lift to drop. Seems to me I may have a high accumulation of pressure built up in the hydraulic resevoir, this may be normal...just an observation.

When I drained everything out, I was able to observe the control valve moving nicely and smoothly in and out with the control arm actuating its movement. I even observed some residual oil coming out from around the control valve while moving it.

I will aquire the parts and user manual for this tractor, thank you for the suggestions and links. I want to explore all my options before I start disassembling anything. I believe I have read all of John(UK)'s suggestions and he indicated that there are some observations of the system that should be done before disassembling and removing the pump.

Any other suggestions?

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Jerry/MT

04-28-2008 16:51:18




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to MLV, 04-28-2008 09:40:34  
Did the control valve move all the back or just part way? It has to move back far enough to disconnect the cylinder pressure line from the neutral position back to the reservior so the lift can drop.



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Jerry/MT

04-27-2008 20:31:21




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to MLV, 04-27-2008 17:47:33  
Those tapings on the side are test ports. You can check the relief valve setting with them. You should not open them for what you are doing, however your observation of them bleeding off the pressure and the lift dropping is another clue to the puzzle.

Based on your description, I would suspect the control valve is binding. Get the hitch to the highest position, THEN SHUT OFF THE ENGINE.(NEVER PLACE YOUR HANDS IN THE HYDRAULIC COMPARTMENT WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING!)
Place the control lever in the full down position and observe what happens. Then, reach over to the control fork and pull it toward the back of the tractor. Does the lift fall? If it does, you found the problem. The control valve is sticking. If it is and you are bleeding pressure from the test port and the lift drops, I"m pretty sure that your control valve is the root cause of your problem.
Changing the oil is not going to cure the problem you are experiencing. Dirty oil might have been the cause but changing the oil won"t clean any crud of the control valve.

If you are new to these tractors, I would strongy advise you to get a Ferguson Shop Manual(~$20), a TE-20 Owners Manual and and the TE-20 parts manual.( You can find these on ebay and on they are available from the parts people on this site.) Together these manuals will provide systems descriptions and exploded views of the components of the various systems so you can understand how things work and how things go together.

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Walter Buller

04-27-2008 19:04:22




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 Re: Hydraulic Lift Trouble in reply to MLV, 04-27-2008 17:47:33  
I recently had a MF 35 that did the same thing. My mechanic and I had to remove that heavy cover over the hydraulic reservoir that your seat sits on, put new rings inside the ram, and then make some adjustments to the levers. Don"t ask me to tell you exactly how he adjusted them because I don"t exactly know but it worked.



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