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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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transmission howl

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one acher

05-10-2008 07:54:07




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The transmission in my MF-35 howls when in REVERSE, especially under load. It is evident in both hi and lo range. Nothing at all in any forward speeds. I cannot tell if the noise is coming from the transmission or the differential; PTO makes no difference to the noise. Has anyone experienced this? Or, does anyone have a theory?
Thanks to all in advance.




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gerard

05-11-2008 15:45:21




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
Whine is a function of speed - recall an auto gearbox problem I sorted many years ago, after the dealer had given up on it. Sussed that the pitch was too high for anything other than the dozens of teeth on the front pump - and that's what it was.
I'd be surprised if any diff would whine under 25 / 30 mph - which kinda leaves out your tractor reversing. And, as John UK says, why not noisy in forward? I'd take a close look at the reverse gear itself.

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John (UK)

05-11-2008 09:50:58




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
It is possible that the pinion bearings on the differential are either out of adjustment or are damaged in some way, probably the roller bearing track surface will be pitted, possibly due to water in the system at some time. There are a couple of needle roller bearing on the reverse idler shaft and that is right at the bottom of the transmission, so it could be water again that has caused it. But howling like you say it is usually something right at the back-end and the noise echoes in the housing, but you really need to investigate thoroughly or you could be taking it apart unnecessarily. No easy way, you have to listen very carefully where the noise is coming from. If you remove one of the round side covers and test it, the noise will be louder if it is the pinion bearings as they are just inside that cover. It could also be the large bearings that carry the diff assy as they do get pitted but I would have thought that it would have made the noise in both directions if it was one of those..John

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one acher

05-11-2008 15:41:30




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to John (UK), 05-11-2008 09:50:58  
John (UK), The noise just seemed too loud and too far back to be the countershaft bearings. But as I look at the drawings, it could well be the bearings on the pinion shaft, especially the pilot. Since the shaft would be moving in the opposite direction, the forces would be changed 180 deg. as well, putting pressure on the pilot bearing. Does that sound logical? And yes, there apparently was water in the cases. The trans. fluid looked like partially mixed chocolate syrup in milk. Is there any way to get in there besides pulling the cover?

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John (UK)

05-12-2008 11:53:58




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-11-2008 15:41:30  
I wasn't thinking that it would be the pilot bearing I was thinking that it would more likely be one of the two tapered roller bearings on the pinion, The pilot would be loaded equally no matter if the tractor is in forward or reverse, but with the tapered bearings, one is loaded in forward and one is loaded in reverse, so it does seem more likely to be one of those. The pinion will come out as an assy. through the top and then you can see properly, there is no other way to do it. If you email me at fergusontractors@tiscali.co.uk just remind me again what you are doing and I will send you the info you need to remove and reset the Hydraulic Top Cover, it isn't as bad as you think, just heavy...John

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one acher

05-12-2008 17:36:23




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to John (UK), 05-12-2008 11:53:58  
Thank you, John. It will be a week or so, depending on parts availability, before I can replace the rear main, release and pilot for the clutch. I'm trying an automotive supplier since the service at the local AGCO is less than stellar. I'm trying to decide if I should replace the clutch shaft bushings while they're easy to access. Just a note; I had forgotten that the rear main seal was held in place by a flange with three bolts on the clutch side and two on the crank side. I'm trying to remember how I supported the engine the last time I went through this...

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John (UK)

05-13-2008 11:19:31




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-12-2008 17:36:23  
That is easy, you use the Radius Rods like the handles on a Barrow, prop them up and they will support the engine easily. Just block the front wheels though, don't want it to run over you.
If the bushes are worn, then I would replace them but they wear quite well really, you will be able to see how worn they are by looking at the outside of the transmission case. The only thing that really gives trouble with the bushes is that they can partially seize and it makes the clutch pedal difficult to use and it keeps pressure on the Thrust bearing, which is not good. After 50 years it may be better to at least take the shafts out and clean them up at least. The bushes are available from Sparex as S40740 1" x 1-1/16" x 3/4"...the shafts are available as well in case they are worn, the 5" shaft is S41858 and the 3" shaft is S41857, you may find that this site has these parts as well. If your tractor has a dual or live-drive Clutch it will need setting, do you have the info for doing this? If you need it email me....John

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one acher

05-13-2008 12:44:54




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to John (UK), 05-13-2008 11:19:31  
John, using the radius arms for levers is a stroke of genius! I've got the afternoon off. Going to pull out the main seal today. Ordered other parts today, including remanufactured clutch. The old was oil soaked. Didn't feel like splitting the tractor a second time if I couldn't get all the oil out of the old clutch and it started slipping on me.
I'm using an I&T manual for the work on the 35. They have pretty good instructions for the clutch R&R. I have a good friend in a machine shop. Will ask him to make up "special tools" for setting clutch.
John, do you have an opinion on trans/hyd fluid? The AGCO dealer says Permatran III supersedes GL-1. I'm in Central US. A cold winter day is 0 deg. F, Hot summer day 100 deg. F. And yes, I drive it on both days.

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John (UK)

05-14-2008 11:08:46




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-13-2008 12:44:54  
I believe that oil may do the job, I don"t have a complete run down on the spec of the oil but you can use multi-grade 15W/40 oil which is more widely used, that will handle a wide temperature range and will not be too thick when cold or too thin when hot. This was recommended by Castrol Oil when I asked them for a more up-to-date version of GL1. We have a lot of tractors running on this now and the results have all been good. The rating of the oil may vary in your area slightly to the one I have given above, but the correct one will be stocked that is suitable as it is also used in auto engines and that has to be right, so just use that. It is the hydraulics that you have to consider more than the Transmission with the oil specification....John

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one acher

05-11-2008 04:21:22




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
This is my brand new '63 MF-35. It's split in half for a rear main seal and a clutch plate. I put in new spindle bushings and bearings. PTO seal was replaced. Needs a pivot pin and bush. Lower lift arm pin (in trumpet) needs replaced. All the fluids were filthy. The left fender is wrinkled. Tires are pretty weathered. Oh, yeah, and the rims are rusting out around the stems.

But, boys, you should hear this baby run! I picked it up on a 20 degree day and it fired right up. Figured the seller had warmed it up before my arrival. Trailered it home, went out the next morning to get the serial number off the tag and thought I would see if it turned over. Still on the trailer, now just 5 degrees, and it fired instantly! No clatter. No smoke. No muss or fuss. Ran like a kitten purring in your lap. First thing, snapped the throttle linkage, then noticed the front end wobble. Clutch slipping a little, etc. So, here I am. But it goes so well with the '49 TO-20 and the '56 F-40. Had a 30 for a while, but a good friend talked me out of it. He's still a good friend, but I miss the 30.

Any way, I'm looking forward to working the 35 around here. The live power is handy as a shirt pocket. And the power increase over the 20 is pretty significant. The sheet metal on this thing is about perfect other than the fender. I'll post a pic just as soon as I pull the halfs together. Maybe I'll just work it for awhile and see if I can figure out the whine in reverse. Maxwell99 might be on the right track. I'm not so much of a purist that I won't try the Lucas oil. The fluid in the trans. was as filthy as I've ever seen. I'll probably have to drain it, fill it, run it and drain it again to get it worked out a little. I have no idea if that is the cause of the howling, but I'm certain it's not helping. I'll keep you posted.

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sibby(AUS)

05-11-2008 02:58:43




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
reverse idler gear or bearings? cheers.



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maxwell99

05-10-2008 17:47:30




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
I know the Ferguson purist will howl and throw wrenchs at their computers when they read my solution.

If you have changed the trans/hyd fluid in last few years and know that you do not have water in fluid. You know that all forward gears and lift is working properly.

If all that is positive:

I would just add 1 qt of Lucas Oil Stablizer to the trans/hyd sump, take tractor out and give it a good workout.

I believe the Lucas oil will quieten the gears and in no way harm any of the other mechnical parts of the transmission/hyd system.

cost $10, I say worth a try before you tear into transmission.

Good luck and let us know your final solution to the problem.

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Bruce(OR)

05-10-2008 16:27:02




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
10 seconds of research showed the gear train in the trans is sliding back and forth. Perhaps worn thrust washers are morew in order. 3/8" hose makes a wonderful stethescope. One end to your ear and the other along the suspected noisy area. Two people and a hose long enough to safely work.
One to drive, one to listen. Pick your wife! She will enjoy the knowledge that you are listening so she can talk then!

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Gerald J.

05-11-2008 10:49:37




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to Bruce(OR), 05-10-2008 16:27:02  
The gears have to slide. That's how it shifts.

In many vintage transmissions first and reverse gears are straight cut and howl more than helical gears in other speeds. Though in my MF-135 parts book the gears look like they are all straight so that puts emphasis on bearing and gear quality in your transmission.

No amount of lubrication honey will quiet pitted bearings.

Gerald J.



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Ken Crisman

05-10-2008 13:34:11




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 Re: transmission howl in reply to one acher, 05-10-2008 07:54:07  
Maybe worn gears . God bless, Ken



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