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4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler

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David Tiefenbru

01-21-2001 19:34:43




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The seal and piston on the left are from my spare tranny. Piston part number C7NN-7C117-D. with steel seal ring, part number C5NN-7C000A.

The seal and piston on the right are from the transmission I am rebuilding. Piston part number C0NN 7C-117-B. With rubber seal ring similar to those used on the other 3 clutch pack pistons in both transmissions. (but much smaller than the seals for the 3 main clutches)

The bore on the left piston is shot, so using it isn't really an option. When I went to the Ford dealer, (even with both pistons & part numbers) both came up with the *same* part number for the seal, which is, of course, the steel one that won't work with my good piston.

The part number for the steel (Won't work-I bought one) piston ring is C5NN-7C000A.

Does anyone have another part number or other idea / explanation I can try?

Maybe there was some kind of middle of the road change and a different model / year will come up with the correct part?


Thank you, Dave

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Texadian

01-24-2001 15:37:13




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 Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 01-21-2001 19:34:43  
Late in the production of Selectospeeds, '66 or '67, Ford Tractor changed from Neoprene lathe cut seals on the direct drive clutch pistons to a machined cast iron seal ring. When disassembling Selectospeeds we usually found the direct drive clutch piston neoprene seal baked hard from overheating. I believe the cast iron seal can be used with a piston originally intended for a neoprene seal. It doesn't matter if the groove is too wide, oil pressure pushes the ring to one side anyway. We were always skeptical about the ability of the cast ring to seal and I remember using lapping compound to polish the seal OD and the clutchpack ID. Your tractor is a 1963 or 1964 4000, similar to the 1801, a derivative of the 801. From 58 to 62 Ford Tractor used the sprague (one-way) direct drive clutch. 63/64 models used a hydraulic clutch pack controlled by a separate servo operated direct drive clutch control valve - be sure this valve is not sticking in the housing, it should move with its own weight.

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David Tiefenbrunn

01-24-2001 21:00:32




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 Re: Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to Texadian, 01-24-2001 15:37:13  
Thank you for the information! I knew something was up. I wonder why the rubber seal on mine isn't shot, but I will see what I can do with the steel one.

Dave



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Tony Jacobs

01-22-2001 22:10:24




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 Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 01-21-2001 19:34:43  
Hi David , I know we spoke about your transmissions before and checked the casting numbers to make sure they were both Direct Clutch Models , but I do not remember if you gave any serial or model numbers that may have been stamped on the trans. where the starter bolts on, I am beginning to wonder if one of those trans. may be a later model 6000/Commander trans. the back half of those is different than the 2000/4000. Also I checked with a friend of mine who is a retired Ford dealer mechanic and used to and still does do some S-O-S work and he told me you were looking for specs. that were not available for these trans. when they were new never mind 30/40 years later. He joked and wanted to know if you were reinventing the S-O-S trans . Thanks Tony Jacobs

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David Tiefenbrunn

01-23-2001 18:53:19




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 Re: Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to Tony Jacobs , 01-22-2001 22:10:24  
I remeber. Both castings are C3NN-7006-B.

There is a smaller number B15 on one, and B35 on the other, below the C3NN # and another line that is the same on both.

The "original" case has the numbers 416E 0086 stamped on one line on the starter mounting area.

The "spare" case has the numbers 41404 D on the first line, and 67815< on the second line.

Note: I am not sure of the first 4 in 41404 D. I am not sure of the 6 and 8 in 67815<.
Both due to pitting and such. I could post pictures if it would help.

To keep everything together, the "original" transmission is the one with the rubber o-ring piston seal, and the "spare" transmission had the steel piston seal.

The "original" is from the Balmar loader, painted yellow. The spare is painted blue. The internal parts (gears, clutches, bands, servos) are identical, except for the direct drive clutch.

The transmission has been worked on in the past, so maybe someone used the piston from another model...But the Ford dealer computer comes up with 4000 series using either piston part number. Wierd.

I have thought of a few modifications for it...
I figure a tourque converter could replace the overload clutch, and at the same time smooth the impulse shock load from the diesel engine. Avoids the stupid undersized spline stripping problem also. (future project - not enough time right now) For now, just don't lug the engine anymore. (didn't know that was a no no.)

I am also thinking of putting an oil cooler on it somehow, as this is something that won't take a long time.

I also spent a little time looking at the "logic" charts to see if I could get another reverse speed- like 7 or 8 forward. I don't know how the ground speed compares on the Balmar to a farm tractor, but R2 is still WAY slow. Due to the dry brake skid steering system, I often run backwards rather than turn around to save wear on the brakes, tires and ground.

Thank you for the help,

Dave

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ZANE

01-22-2001 12:54:36




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 Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 01-21-2001 19:34:43  
I would go to some shop that repairs automatic transmissions and see if they would go through some of their seal kits. I think it may be the same as some of the automobile transmission seals from along the same years.



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RICKWI

01-22-2001 07:04:01




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 Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 01-21-2001 19:34:43  
What would you get if you ordered a new piston also?



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David Tiefenbrunn

01-23-2001 19:19:20




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 Re: Re: 4000 industrial S-O-S direct drive clutch puzzler in reply to RICKWI, 01-22-2001 07:04:01  
I'll have to check with Ford. I'll guess 50-50 that it will end up NLS. I was looking at the parts and noticed that the steel seal will fit on the piston cut for the rubber seal, but since the groove is wider, it slops around. I suppose I could make a shim to "tighten" it up, and put it on the side that isn't one of the sealing surfaces. Also, I heard of a local place that makes any kind of custom "o"-ring, so I can try them also.

Obviously, if I could just find the "magic part number" to order the thing it would be easyer, but that might not work this time.

I also wonder why they used rubber seals on the other clutches and not the direct drive clutch.

Thank you,

Dave

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