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3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression

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Jim Maxwell

07-25-2002 09:23:08




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I've been rebuilding a 1967 Ford 4000 3 Cylinder Diesel Tractor for a neighbour, basically from one end to the other. My problem is with the low compression on the rebuilt engine. The original engine was hard to start and smoked considerable. A compression test revealed 220psi on #1, 100psi on #2 and 125psi on #3. A follow-up wet test showed very little improvement, hence pull the engine and rebuilt. Following the rebuilt (new rings, new sleeves, original pistons and head work) the engine compression is only 220psi across the board (??). My service manual and two Ag Dealers say it should be between 425 - 500 psi. I've had the tractor on an Ag/Dealer's Dyno to set the rings and she's putting out 50hp, which is basically about right. I'm VERY concerned that in the cold weather she will not start. I've re-checked the timing and valve lash and so has the engine rebuilder - all's well there! I've also checked for blow-by in the sump and rocker cover - zilch. My neighbour has an interesting thought; could the rebuilder have put "gas" pistons in the engine instead of the original "diesel" ones? My rebuilder's invoice shows no new pistons but I'm going to re-check that one. Oh by the way, I had my pressure gauge double checked (at a calibration facility - nice to have friends) even before pulling the engine in the first place, and my gauge read within 10psi of their master gauge. An interesting problem - things do not logically add up.

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Steven B

07-28-2002 23:09:19




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 Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Jim Maxwell, 07-25-2002 09:23:08  
When you made the adaptor for your compression tester be sure you are not adding the internal volume of the gutted injector to the combustion chamber volume.

Steven B



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Bern

07-25-2002 21:01:25




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 Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Jim Maxwell, 07-25-2002 09:23:08  
As one who has rebuilt many of these engines and done dozens of compression checks, allow me to say the following:

1) About the bext compression you'll see is 350-400 max. That's at a decent cranking speed. When Ford first came out with the 450-500 figure, that was with the engine running at idle, which they later changed to a cranking test. Keep in mind that if your battery is weak and the cranking speed is sluggish, your compression will be lower. Also, you do have all the injectors out when you do this, right?

2) Piston deck height is VERY important. Not only were there different types of pistons, there were also different thicknesses of head gaskets. Using a thick gasket where a thin one should be will definitely cause hard starting when cold. It's amazing the difference just .020" can make.

3) I seriously doubt you can mix up the pistons (gas to diesel) and still be able to start the thing. According to the picture I have, the gas pistons have cutouts on the tops for valve reliefs.

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Jim M.

07-28-2002 09:30:33




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 Re: Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Bern, 07-25-2002 21:01:25  
Bernie,
Thanks for your thoughts.
#1) When I did my compression test I took an old injector gutted it and attached a gauge along with a check valve - all other injectors were removed! As a power source I connected the little Ford up to a 100+ hp tractor which gave me lots of reserve cranking, she seemed to roll-over well. I'm curious how "Ford" would measure their "idling" compression?

#2) I really like your idea about the "Head" gasket, that one did not come to me at the time. I've contacted my engine rebuilder to verify which H/G was installed and I will cross check it with my local Ag dealer.

#3) I also thought that a mix-up in pistons was unlikely but they also had a 3 cylinder gas in the shop at the same time.

Since my first posting I've had the tractor on a small 6' chopper for 3-4 hrs, and it seems to have power. I've returned the tractor to its owner with instructions to work it well and I will re-check everything in a month or so.
I will let you know how things turn out.

Jim Maxwell

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ErnieD

07-25-2002 17:25:19




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 Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Jim Maxwell, 07-25-2002 09:23:08  
Never did a diesel compression test, but on gas I understand it is important to crack the plugs, run briefly to blow the carbon from loosening the plugs out. Otherwise the carbon particles hold the valves open a tiny bit, hence low wet compression.

Reading between the lines I assume the valves and seats were cut, within specs and lapped. All else on target i would wait and see how it started when cold.

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Jim M.

07-28-2002 09:47:56




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 Re: Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to ErnieD, 07-25-2002 17:25:19  
ErnieD;
Thanks for your input.
I've not been able to measure any "blow-by" in the sump or the top cover with my compound gauge, therefore I feel the various parts are seating. Since your "posting", I've worked the tractor for 3-4 hrs on a small 6' chopper and it seems to work fairly well. The tractor has been returned to its owner with instructions to work it well and I will give it a thorough inspection before the cold weather hits. I'll let you know what I discover. Thanks again!

Jim Maxwell

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RickB.

07-25-2002 14:38:27




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 Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Jim Maxwell, 07-25-2002 09:23:08  
I think if you are actually developing 50 PTO hp @ 540 PTO rpm, have little or no blow-by or overheating and it starts well at operating temp I'd run it till something got me a lot more excited. This tractor's Nebraska test indicated 46.1 max PTO HP.You aren't going to develop that kind of power from that engine at the compression figures you quote without a lot of exhaust smoke and/or blow-by. Your gauge may be good, but is the check valve on your compression tester bleeding back? I don't have a service manual here at home, but I believe 400PSI would be very good, I question the 425 to 500 psi range.

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Jim M

07-28-2002 10:19:32




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 Re: Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to RickB., 07-25-2002 14:38:27  
RickB;
Since your "posting" I've had the tractor on a small 6' chopper for 3-4 hrs and it seems to be working fairly well. I've instructed the owner to work it well and I will re-examine everything in about a month's time.
I made my Compression Testing Unit from an old injector (gutted) and added a pneumatic check valve to hold the reading. My unit will hold pressure over night! I bought the service books for the tractor (2000 thru 7000 series) before taking on this project, that's where the 425-500psi # comes from. Another contributor, (Bernie) has indicated that this service book # was probably an "idling" compression #, not cranking.
I also find it a little hard to believe that I can get 50hp on the dyno at a compression of only 220#.
I will let you know how thing work out, thanks again.

Jim Maxwell

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TimK

07-25-2002 12:17:46




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 Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to Jim Maxwell, 07-25-2002 09:23:08  
I would say it's either wrong pistons, valve adjusters set too tight, or cam timing is off relative to the crankshaft. My $.02



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Jim M.

07-28-2002 10:42:53




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 Re: Re: 3 Cylinder Rebuilt = Low Compression in reply to TimK, 07-25-2002 12:17:46  
TimK;
Thanks for your assistance.
When I first got the rebuilt engine back and installed, I performed a compression test and I was surprised at the low compression, although uniform. My first thoughts were like yours; "they" must have the valves set to tight or the Cam is off by one tooth. This was not to be the case, I double checked all valves lash and timing marks. The engine re-builder also sent out a mechanic to re-verify my checks and we both agreed that the timing was on spec. They also indicated that the original pistons were re-used. Another contributor (Bernie) has raised an interesting point concerning the thickness of the Head gasket; I'm checking that one out. Since your posting I've put 3-4 additional hours on the tractor by driving a small 6' chopper and it seems to be working fairly well. The owner has been instructed to work the tractor well for a month or so and then I will re-examine the tractor. I will let you know what I find out.
Thanks again.

Jim Maxwell

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