Whats a ground speed P.T.O

Regards

MOST tractors have a pto that runs on input shaft of the transmission.. meaning that as long as the clutch was disengaged,, the pto would turn and its speed was based on engine rpms.. no matter which gear you picked,, even if you were in netrual.. as long as the clutch was out.. you have pto running... the tachometer showed a mark to run the pto at 540 rpms.. this is the most common type of pto.. but when you push the clutch in to shift, the pto stopped.. something you would not want to happen if your baleing hay,, if the hay gets thicker, you need to slow the tractor down, so you would gear down and both the above were not desireable.. hth.. bill

Could you continue this thread by supplying a little more info on what it is you are looking for? I understand all the different pto types, but the converstion here is confusing me!!!!! :) :) :) You are getting some difficult to grasp replies to this.

I'm going to assume you are looking at Ford tractors, and you want to understand the different types of pto available & what is good & what isn't?

A non-live pto will stop _every_ time the clutch is pressed. Inside, the pto is run by the same stub shaft that also runs the tranny. So, this pto will always run the 'proper' speed in relation to the engine speed, but the rear wheels and the pto are locked together any time the pto is engaged. If you are in neutral, the pto works fine. If you are in gear, you must start the pto & the wheels turning at the same time. Any time you push in the clutch, both the rear wheels and the pto are disengaged at the same time. If you have a large brush-cutter or other big load on the pto this will act like a flywheel, and even if you push in the clutch, the pto implement will spin down & continue to 'drive' the rear wheels for a ways. Rather dangerous.

Live pto is a tractor with 2 clutches, one for the tractor tranny, one for the pto. This is a good handy system. Both clutches are operated by the same clutch pedal, but at different times. You can push the clutch 1/2 way down and stop the tractor tranny, stop moving or shift into or out of gears. The pto will continue to operate. Real nice for running a baler or a snow blower or most implements. In order to put the pto in gear, you need to push the pedal all the way down, so to go in pto gear you need to stop tractor movement. However, the power for the tranny & the power for the pto come from different clutches, so the pto & tranny are never locked together. Much safer.

Independent pto is often confused with or interchanged with 'live' pto. It is a different form of live pto. It allows you to independently engage or disengage either or both the tranny clutch & the pto clutch at different or the same times. It has a usually larger lever for the pto and this lever directly controls the pto clutch - at any time, no matter what you are doing with the foot lever which only contols the tranny.

Then they came out with hydraulic independent pto. This is the same as above, but has a smaller pto lever that controls some hydraulic flow that is used to engage or disengage the pto clutch with hydraulic pressure. Some consider this a step backwards, as you lose any chance of feathering the shock load of the pto, and they often have a pto brake which can be hard on some pto equipment. In other words, it is either totally on or totally off, with not much forgiveness as loads start up or spin down. It is the newest version of pto tho, biggest & best I guess.

For a brief time some tractors came out with a ground-speed pto. Frankly, you will never use it. There are only a few rare implements where it has any point to it, like a pto driven side rake. Most pto implements are designed to run at 540 rpm, and the whole ground speed deal is a waste of time on them..... This ground speed is _usually_ a seperate lever setting, in addition to the regular speed pto, and can be found on all the different types of pto types. Tho it is a rare & little needed option.

If you are looking at Ford tractors, the early N series had aweful pto/ hydraulics, nothing live, and the pto needed to run to make the 3pt & hydraulics work. Lots of safety & ease of use issues there.

Newer series up until present day you will find a lot of non-live pto type. All until the 100 series x6x models were not live pto. From the NAA on at least the hyd were live.

From _some_ of the 100 series Ford tractors you will find a live, 2-stage pto on them (those with a '6' in the middle of their number, like 660, 961, etc.). These 2-stage clutches are still popular on current Ford tractors of today.

The SoS Ford tractors had an independent pto, those with a x7x number were independent, those with a x8x number also had a ground speed option in addition to independent. (But to answer your generic question, not _all_ ground speed pto's from all makers were also independent - quite a few were not!)

Newer models, like the 5000 series probably have an independent pto, tho you will find a mix of live, 2-stage, and even some non-live ptos on various tractors in all the different colors of today.

Your questions are very broad & wide, and this is a very confusing topic. Could you reply back with a more narrow, specific question if some of this is not making sense? We'd be glad to help, but it is quite a big topic with a lot of little details, I see how confusing it becomes. It is hard to answer your question appopriately, as there are different ways to take it....

For me, I want a tractor with either live or independent pto. I personally prefer the older hand-clutch independent pto over the newer hyd clutch ptos, but the hyd units are good too. I find little practical difference beween operating a live 2-stage pto tractor or an independent pto one, but the independent is probably slightly better for a few things.

I have a tractor & used to have more without any type of live pto, and they are more diffiult to use with some implements.

I have 7 tractors, and have all types _except_ ground speed pto. I use them all on a farm. I really see little practical difference in a live or independent pto, unless you have a real specific need for independent. Does that help you?

I can think of no practical use for a ground speed pto unless you happen to want a pto driven siderake, mostly a useless option.

Does that help any?

--->Paul

--->Paul

Independent PTO is any system where the PTO can be engaged/disengaged indepently of tractor motion. Most of these systems, aside from those described above, are ground speed as well.

Dean

I believe on the Ford line the only ones with ground speed pto were the x8x models, which happened to also have independent pto, but other makes of tractor bundled ground speed with regular pto or live pto.

--->Paul

Finally, in a ground-speed PTO system, live or not, there is no mechanism between the PTO drive and the transmission drive that facilitates variable tractor speed while maintaining constant PTO speed. Select-O-Speed transmissions, as well as other power-shifting types and hydrostats, can be shifted (at least between some ranges) without clutching, thereby allowing variable tractor speed independent of PTO speed.

Hope this helps.

Dean

There are 3 types of PTO.
Trans drive; Live; and Independent.

Trans drive; This pto is run off the back of the transmission so the gear you select determines the speed of the PTO. First gear would be a slower PTO speed than Fourth gear at the same RPM. This is why it is called a ground speed PTO. The higher the gear the faster the tractor goes and the faster the PTO goes.

Live; This pto is run off the clutch. The pto speed is not affected by the ground speed at all; it is affected by the engine rpm. While the trans clutch and the pto clutch are worked by the same pedal causing you to stop the tractor movement to affect the pto they run off different gears in the trans. The proof meter on a x6x shows this by saying a pto speed of 545 rpm can be had at 1700 rpm where as the same rpm will produce a different ground speed depending on what gear you have the trans in.

Independent; This pto is run separate of the drive line clutch. It has its own control to disengage the power to the pto allowing you to start and stop the pto with out messing with the ground drive clutch. This pto can be rpm speed driven with some offering a ground drive speed also.

So to sum it up ..... ....

A 841 would have a pto speed that runs only in relation to ground drive. (Trans drive)

A 861 would have a pto speed that runs only in relation to engine speed no matter what the gear. (Live) (this is why some call this a independent pto because it runs totally independent to the ground speed gears)

A 871 would have a true independent pto.
And a 881 is a true independent pto that can also be changed over from rpm speed to ground speed.

So to answer the original question I would say….
1) Ground speed pto is a pto that is affected and changes by the speed of the tractor.
2) Independent pto can have rpm speed or a ground drive speed set up or both.

Ground speed PTO is driven with the transmission and cannot be used in neutral to run a machine with tractor not moving. (9n?? and x81 model SOS tractors)

Regular PTO - When engaged you can run the PTO with the tranmission in neutral. 8n, Jubilee, x41 models, x51 models.

Live PTO - using a dual stage clutch you can engage the PTO let out the clutch halfway and the PTO starts then you can still shift gears and let out the clutch all the way to make the tractor move.

Independent PTO - SOS tractors with PTO have a separate handle to engage the PTO regardless of what you are doing with the transmission. The SOS x81 models have 3 speeds 540 RPM, 1000RPM, and ground speed the x71 models have the single 540 RPM speed.

The combinations from all of that results in mass confusion, doesn't it? :) I believe you got it about right in a short message there.

For a short helpful answer, I hope the original poster narrows down his question some. Many people interchange some of the terms, which doesn't help much.

--->Paul

I think your post is the most clear and correct.

The PTO will not run with the clutch depressed, and will run at the same speed with the tranny in neutral, or any other gear.

So with that info we would then have.

Regular PTO; 8N/9N/841/ect.....
This pto is run off the trans input shaft so engine rpm decides the pto speed and NOT the ground speed. Since it uses the same clutch as the trans you can not stop the tractor with the clutch with out stopping the pto.

Live PTO; 860/660/2000 ect. any with 2 stage clutch.
This pto is also run off the trans input shaft so engine speed decides pto speed and not ground speed. Since it uses a different clutch disc and input shaft from the transmission (2 stage clutch and 2 input shafts) the pto can be operated separate from the ground drive with the clutch.

Independent PTO; SOS and others.
This pto gets its power from in front of the trans clutch or straight off the crank. It has a totally separate clutch to operate the pto. This is the only set up that has a ground speed option. Since this set up does not use any trans gears or pedals (clutch) it can be operated totally independent of the transmission.

1. Live or non-live pto was an option on 2000 models _I think_?

2. On the Ford SoS tractors with ground speed pto you are mostly correct: However other tractor makers made a ground speed option on some models that can be non-live pto. They simpley come off the back of the tranny output....

In fact, when the SoS trannies are put into ground speed function, the pto drive _must_ go through the tranny gears in order to match the ground speed! :) For a true ground speed pto, it really needs to function as a non-live pto while in that mode.....

--->Paul