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3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions?

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rgv tx

12-14-2005 12:55:17

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Early 70's 3000 Diesel. Has an obvious miss, but have been using as is. Smokes out the exhaust a lot, but smells of fuel, even the muffler gets wet after use (down and out exhaust). Hasn't gotten any better, or worse during the summer. Now that the weather has changed I thought I would see what my problem is. Here is what I have done so far:
Pulled the hood off so I can see what I'm doing. Pressure washed the engine, didn't want bad stuff falling inside. Fired it up, and one injector at a time released the fuel line until fuel started spraying out. Cylinder one cause it to almost die. Cylinder 2, same thing, almost dies. Cylinder 3, I got a face full of fuel, but the engine continued to run the same. So I figured I had a bad injector on number 3. I went ahead and pulled all 3 of them and took to a shop that rebuilds pumps etc. He puts all 3 on the pump machine and they all are good, spraying a nice even flow in 4 directions. Didn't charge me anything (nice guy) so I come home and install them again. Same scenario, 1 and 2 nearly kill the engine, 3 has no effect. So I pull numbers 2 and 3 and switch them. Try the test again, same thing. 3 has no effect on the engine.
So now I assume I need to do a compression test next? I have a compression tester, and it has the tapered rubber tip but it won't go all the way into the hole with the injector pulled out. Works great in a spark plug hole though! Is there another way to check the compression on a diesel? Should I get a different gauge on a hose that I can get to seat all the way down there? Should I bypass the compression test and try or look for something else? Should I put it back together and run it as is forever? Naw, I don't want to do that!
Ideas? Suggestions? Thoughts? I'm all ears.

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Tom Jefferson

12-16-2005 06:04:34

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

Since you don't have a compression tester, you could try slightly loosening the valve clearance on the intake and exhaust on cyl #3 to make sure that they are fully closed. On my 4000 3 cyl 201diesel, when I bought it #1 cyl had a broken exhaust valve. I took the head off and to a machine shop. They told me the exhaust valves on those engines were prone to breakage, and advised me to replace all 3 exh valves, which I did. Removing and installing the cyl head was fairly simple, I did that as well as replacing one piston in about six hours and a sixpack.
Tom

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Hurley J. D.

12-15-2005 11:25:21

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

I am going to suggest something to you, it may sound stupid but if it was me I would try it. Hook the number three injector to the pump line without it being installed in the tractor to verify if the pump is working or not. You could get a face full of fuel and still not have enough pressure to crack the injector. Then you can proceed to tearing into the engine if it is necessary.

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rgv tx

12-15-2005 17:36:25

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to Hurley J. D., 12-15-2005 11:25:21

That idea doesn't sound stupid to me, sounds like good old fashion logic! As a matter of fact, I will try that next....in the morning when I can get back out there to it. Thanks for the GREAT idea! Wasn't around all day today, so I have not got to play with it anymore since my original post, but tomorrow AM..... ...I'm all over it!
I will be sure and post what if anything I discover. Sure is good to have so many great folks willing to share a little bit of their brain, seems mine has a hiccup now and again.

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RodInNS

12-14-2005 17:27:07

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

A compression tester is nice, but if you don't have one, you don't have one. As suggested below, check the valve lash, cold, and make certain that the intake is at .015", and the exhaust is at .018". Just roll the engine over, watching the valve action, and check them at TDC on the compression stroke. It's easy enough to pull an injector at this point and stick a rod in there to see TDC, or else remove the little cover on the adapter plate below the starter to see the timing marks on the flywheel. I usually just watch the valves..... If the valves turn out to be too tight, you may have found the problem. If not, then I would just pull the head, and observe closely form there on in. Could be bad rings, bad head gasket, cracked head, burnt piston, and on and on.... Sadly, it looks like you have major troubles in there. Best of luck.

Rod

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soundguy

12-15-2005 06:57:46

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to RodInNS, 12-14-2005 17:27:07

First... I'm in no way a mechanic.. diesel or otherwise. here's a question... Any chance that the pump is not pumping on that #3 line very well.. I.E. no pressure to fire that injector.. etc.

Soundguy

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RodInNS

12-15-2005 09:29:42

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to soundguy, 12-15-2005 06:57:46

Yes, if the tractor has the Simms pump, I could see a situation where one cylinder may not get fuel. It's possible for a plunger to stick, plunger spring to break, or even a bad delivery valve to cause a lack of fuel under pressure.
However, if there's a smell and visual indication of raw fuel in the exhaust, combined with white/grey smoke, then it's a fair bet that the fuel is going to the cylinder, and simply not being burnt to it's full potential. I suppost if you wanted to verify that the injector was actually working and injecting the fuel, you could remove the leak off line from the top of that injector, and watch for a small flow of fuel returning from the injector. There is always a certain percentage of fuel that is passed through the mechanism of the injector for lubrication, and then returned to the tank. If there was no pressure going to that particular injector, then there would not likely be any fuel forced through for lubrication, and thus no return fuel. Anyhow, that's just a thought.

Rod

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soundguy

12-15-2005 11:02:04

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to RodInNS, 12-15-2005 09:29:42

That's good info to know.. Neat idea.. good for a 'quik' check anyway.

Soundguy

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rgv tx

12-15-2005 07:31:19

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to soundguy, 12-15-2005 06:57:46

I thought that same thing in the beginning, and I"m sure a pressure test could be done on each line but..... .....
In the beginning when I was popping the lines loose at each injector while the tractor was running, the amount of fuel coming out of each line appeared to be the same. The only difference I noticed was cyl. 3 did not alter the way the engine ran. Also, when I had the injectors out trying to figure out how to do a compression test, the lines were open and I was turning over the engine and each line would squirt fuel the same from what it appeared. Someone else suggested the idea of the pump being out of time, but since 1 and 2 hit perfect that pretty well eliminates that idea. I plan to check the clearance on the intake and exhaust valves before I pull the head, but of course as usual it"s been delayed until I"m back home about tomorrow. I hate starting things when I know it"s going to take forever to finish.
By the way, thanks to all for the ideas and thoughts. Sure makes life a lot easier to know there are so many knowledgable folks out there willing to help!

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soundguy

12-15-2005 07:49:52

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-15-2005 07:31:19

When you have the line cracked open.. it isn't under pressure... Ilearned a long time ago, that flow of an unpressurized line, and flow rate of a presurized line can be drastically different.

we had a power steering pump that when you cracked the link, would flow oil fine.. good volume.. but when hooke dintot he valve and cyl.. the pump would internally bypass against the load of the cyl...

That's what I was thinking.. that under pressure.. that line may not be fireing.. even though under no load it will pump fuel.. etc.

Not saying that is the case.. just wondering out loud.

Soundguy

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MNmike

12-14-2005 16:42:25

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

before you take the head off make sure you have clearance on your tappets. they could be holding a valve open causing loss of compression.

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mhb@ufe

12-14-2005 16:37:04

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

While you have the valve cover off you need to check the valve lash. Everything can look fine but a tight valve will cause a lose of compression. The intake should be .015 and exhaust .018. Also the compression tester used on that engine is a special one that bolts down using the injector bolts. You might ask the NH dealer about renting theirs instead of trying to purchase one. Good luck.

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Tim K

12-14-2005 13:29:53

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

you need a special compression tester for diesels. The one you have is for a car and will not record high enough as the diesel requires. It is a good idea as said to pull the valve cover. I'd look to make sure that the valves are functioning. Especially look for a broken or collapsed spring or broken retainer. The beauty of diesels is that their are not a lot of possiblities. If ya have compression, and fuel, it's got to fire.

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rgv tx

12-14-2005 15:16:36

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to Tim K, 12-14-2005 13:29:53

Thanks Tim for the suggestion. I was not aware teh compression on a diesel was much higher, but I have now looked it up in the shop manual and you are correct. Gas 115 - 150 + or - 25 PSI
Diesel 420 - 510 + or - 50 PSI
Wow, I guess I would have blown the face off my tester if it had fit.
OK, well I have now removed the valve cover as you suggested. Everything looks fine to me, no broken springs or retainers. I started it and let it run and they are all moving as they should and they are oiling very nicely too. I will include a picture with the cover off.
So now what? Should I go ahead and find a compression tester with the higher rating? We have a Sears with a big tool department, and also a Napa not too far away. New Holland isn't close but I can go there if I have to, but I probably couldn't afford a tool from them!
Would I be better off just to go ahead and pull the head next? If so, what should I look for? Broken ring? I can tell the head has been off prior to my ownership as it has the remanants of Permatex sealer at the joint.
Thanks for the ideas so far, still willing to listen and learn.
George

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rgv tx

12-14-2005 15:19:45

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 15:16:36

Close up picture of cylinder #3.

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rgv tx

12-14-2005 15:21:27

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 15:19:45

And a view of the other side.

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BobReeves

12-14-2005 13:25:19

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Re: 3 cyl. Diesel runing on 2 cyl. Suggestions? in reply to rgv tx, 12-14-2005 12:55:17

Wow!, I am not a diesel mechanic but sounds like you have a big problem. Would bet if you do manage to pull a compression check it will be low. If the injector is working I believe the only thing that will keep a diesel from firing is low compression. Might be injector timing but it is running on two so am thinking that can be discounted.

If you pull the valve cover and the little push rod thingies are moving, might just as well pull the head and see what you find. Hope I am wrong and someone else jumps in with a magic fix...

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