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Ford Tractors Discussion Forum
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gear oil

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bo1

02-09-2006 19:40:22




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need to change the gear oil in my 1953 ford jubilee what type of gear oil is recommend and how much is needed. also need to replace hyd. oil how much and what type?




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tony123

02-11-2006 13:50:11




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
Good discussion, I am not sold either way on the 90/light weight. but, we went through the Syn age and lost many gearboxes at the manufacturing plant that I work. Another example of this is a friend of mine ran syn gearlube in his race car rearend and while sitting during the off season any material above the oil level was rust when he opened it up in spring. I now have a early 50's H and a early 60's 4000 and neither of them are used year round. With the Temperature changes in Minnesota I would suggest never to use syn in an application where the unit is not used on a regular basis. We changed back at work to regular 90W and have had no gearbox failure since. Coincidence? I think not. The 90W sticks to the material, as would other conventional lubricants.

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RodInNS

02-10-2006 19:36:44




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
I would simply use 134D or an equivelant universal tractor fluid like TDH. It is much simpler to buy that by the bucket, and have one type of oil around rather than a part bucket of this and a part bucket of that. It is true that TDH is lighter in weight. It's actual rating, according to the spec sheets I've seen is 10W30. There are always going to be people who will argue against light weight oils and say that they can't lubricate as well as heavy oil. I don't buy that.
I think you will find that the hydraulics will perform better with the TDH than a heavier oil, especially in colder weather.
The other point to consider is that the average weekend warrior isn't out working these old tractors to the limit. Supposing that it didn't have the best oil protection out there, it probably wouldn't matter anyway. I would still suggest that TDH is as good as you'll get. I'd put TDH in and forget it.

Rod

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john_bud

02-10-2006 07:37:29




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
I agree with what Dan said! These old tractors were made at a time when machining tolerances were not nearly as good as they are now. Wanna guess how many CNC machine tools were used in the production of a 1956 tractor? How about a 2006? While I don't know the exact number, a guess would be ZERO for the '56 and A LOT for the '06. The other thing is particulate contamination. I believe that every tractor that has 134 or UDT common sump for all areas (rear end, hydraulics and transmission) also has a filter to remove dirt, grime, gunk and general junk from the fluid. Our old tractors don't, thus the detergent additives in the modern fluids that keep the contamination in suspension (so it can be filtered) is a detriment not a benefit.

Remember back in the old days when you wanted to hotrod an engine? You pulled it apart, changed the cam, maybe pistons and BLUEPRINTED it when putting it back together. Why? Because the factory tolerances were horse snit! I used to keep sets of rods to be able to match weights. Then pay a fair amount of $$ to balance the whole rotating assembly. It was not uncommon for a rod length to be off by 3-8 mils and weight off by 15 to 50 grams. Today, if you pulled apart a new engine, you will be darn lucky to get it back together as good as the factory had it. Heck, most tolerances today are better expressed in microns than in mils! That's a 25.4x improvement for those that are metrically impaired.

Final word, it's your tractor do what you want and enjoy it.

jb

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souNdguy

02-11-2006 13:16:10




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 Re: gear oil in reply to john_bud, 02-10-2006 07:37:29  
>I believe that every tractor that has 134 or >UDT common sump for all areas (rear end, >hydraulics and transmission) also has a filter >to remove dirt, grime, gunk and general junk >from the fluid

Not all common sump tractors have a fluid filter...

Soundguy



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fnhtech

02-10-2006 06:33:21




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
I can understand the concern some have about using the 134 hydraulic oil in a differential or transmission, but I still recommend it to our customers.

This oil has been used very successfully for a great many years in drive axles and transmissions of Ford and New Holland tractors substantially larger than these vintage models we discuss here. In fact, just about every model, even the BIG ones, have been using this oil exclusively and it performs quite well. We very, very rarely have drivetrain problems even in the big tractors which see much more abuse than a little "puddle jumper".

As far as the leakage possibility that some are concerned about, it seems to me that if a seal leaks (regardless of what weight of oil is used) it should be repaired. Using a heavier weight oil is merely putting a "band aid" on the problem.

Of course, my view is affected by the fact that I have to stand behind the work I do for customers, and what you do with your own tractor is certainly your decision to make.

Just my two cents....

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Dan

02-10-2006 07:07:25




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 Re: gear oil in reply to fnhtech, 02-10-2006 06:33:21  
Glad to see an actual New Holland tech frequents the boards - thanks for your input, it is indeed valuable.

Not to start a debate, I would still like to address a few of your statements. When these tractors were originally made, it was unthinkable to put 20w oil as a gear oil - so Ford DESIGNED these old gears to run on 90w oil. Ford did not do anything half-@$$ed when it came to engineering - the fact that so many of these tractors are still in service bares testimony to this. I know additives were not around back then that they put into oils today, but the simple fact is it was DESIGNED for 90w, and their longevity proves this is a very good solution. The added benefit to a thicker oil is noise reduction. I know that is trivial to a repair tech, but is worth mentioning to the guy who has to use this tractor many hours a day (sometimes around his John Deere loving buddies). And, while I whole-heartedly agree with your statement that a leaking seal should be fixed, most who actually USE these tractors would rather choose the time and place on when to do this (or take it in to the dealer) and would like to see this interval spread out as far as possible. What takes you an hour to do in your fully equipped shop, will take the average farmer half a day or more out in the shed. Sometimes - time is money if you know what I mean. And besides, if it will leak on 20w oil, but not on 90w oil - it is not leaking is it :-)

Really though, I am glad to see your input - and hope many take your heed.

Regards,
Dan

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RodInNS

02-10-2006 20:11:41




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 Re: gear oil in reply to Dan, 02-10-2006 07:07:25  
Ford didn't do anything half assed????? I love Ford tractors as much as anyone, but I'd never say that. Ford, at times, was the master of the half assed short cut, because it saved money. The hydraulic systems on the hundred series tractors would make a good mention in that department, not to be outdone by the S-O-S. Engineering was a constant battle between cost, functionaility, reliability, and manufacturig limitations. Corners are always cut.
As far as this debate about tolerances goes.....I don't think I'd agree. A gear, whether it was cut 50 years ago or today, still needs the same amount of backlash to go around without binding. They still react to heat the same way. Many modern tractors that spec TDH exclusively still use a lot of splash lubrication too. The more things change, the more they stay the same. The entire transportation system today is running on SYN 50 in the transmissions and drive axles of heavy trucks. I doubt that you could buy a new heavy truck with mineral oil in these compartments today. Everything is synthetic 50. And they're running a million miles plus before overhauls. You will often find that the most common source of wear in any component is from lubricant deprivation, not from the fluid's weight. Cold starts are ofte fingered in component failures, and operators manuals are full of warnings about not working this or that until it has had time to warm up and circulate properly.
I can think of one particular axle I've dealt with that created a lot more misery with gear oil than it did with TDH, and the TDH made it a lot easier to drain the crap out after the heavy gear oil created the wear, due to non movement of oil in cold weather.
What makes the oils of today are their additive packages. If those additives break down, then you're left with nothing. But when they perform as expected, and changed within proper service intervals, they will give superiour protection to anything that was spec'd 50 years ago. I simply don't but the heavy oil theory, and there is a massive body of evidence of units in service to support that.
Then again, everyone is free to use what makes them happy.

Rod

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Dan

02-10-2006 04:35:29




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
What SouNdguy said. However; I really do not feel the light 20w 134d oil is good for a gear lube even though they say it is. Hydraulics yes, but gear lube no. I put the New Holland spec 134d oil in my hydraulic sump and it works great, but put 90w gl-1 mineral oil in my tranny and differential. That is a better gear oil IMO and if your rear axle oil seals are a little worn, the thicker 90w mineral oil is held back much better than the thinner 20w 134d oil.

Just my $.02 worth,
Dan

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dan hill

02-14-2006 04:54:10




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 Re: gear oil in reply to Dan, 02-10-2006 04:35:29  
I use 90 gear oil in the differental.I cant see the lightweight 134 doing a good job there.I have 134 in the hydraulic system.I have a vane pump that has poor lift power in hot weather but lifts fine in cold weather.I bring in in 8 foot hard wood logs on a carry all in cold weather.These are 16 inch logs.In hot weather you cant lift 300 lb loads of baled hay with the same rig.I have worked on tractor hydraulics for 50 years so I know this is a worn pump.The 134 fluid has the visconsity of atf fluid.Read a piece in the 9n bulletin that said the 134 may be ok for new tractors but it falls flat on old tractors with worn pumps.Since the 9n tractor used the same ring and pinion as the Model a truck I cant see putting this thin 134 in an old tractor.Hypoid gear lube is called extreme pressure for a good reason.Fluid that meets the 134 spec can be bought for 22.00 here.ASk a cnh dealer what a 5 gallon pail of 134 costs.I intend to get the 134 fluid out of my hyd system come spring so it can lift more than 5 bales of hay on a summer day.Ford has done us dirty when it sold the tractor business to an Italian co. Try buying a rear tie rod end for an 8.n ford.No longer avaiable.I worked on an 8n that had the left rear tie rod end shot.Chn repair parts would have cost 150.00.I did some measurering on my 600 and found the right hand rod would work on the 8n.Bought a used part for 30.00 including shipping.

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Richard H.

02-10-2006 06:34:27




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 Re: gear oil in reply to Dan, 02-10-2006 04:35:29  
Dan, I actually read the bulletin at my local FNH dealer a few years back and I believe there was something in there about climate conditions.I live in central Ind. so I went ahead with 134 in my trans and 90 in the rear. But if I lived in the south I would go with 90w in the trans. My goal is with in the next two years I will have to put 90w. back in my toys. Richard



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souNdguy

02-09-2006 19:54:20




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 Re: gear oil in reply to bo1, 02-09-2006 19:40:22  
You can use your favorite 134d compatible utf in all 3 sumps, especially if the seals are bad letting them leak together.. or, use utf/ aw32/46 in the hydro, and then your favorite flavor/weight gear oil in the trans and diffy.

6qts tranny
8qts diffy
8qts hyd... may slightly overfill if you have a loader

Soundguy



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gerard

02-10-2006 15:10:41




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 Re: gear oil in reply to souNdguy, 02-09-2006 19:54:20  
I disagree with the NH tech.
When recommending new oils for old vehicles we must remember two things:
Filtration / detergency - modern equipment has oil filters, working in conjunction with modern oils. The oil holds dirt in suspension, the filter takes it out. Put an HD oil in an old non-filtered engine / gearbox etc and you are effectively running it on grinding paste.
Secondly, new machines are constructed to tighter clearances. Old, wider clearances require a thicker oil. Try running an old engine on a 10 or 15 grade oil and hear it rattle - then watch it seize up as the detergents have cleaned everything out and oil consumption has rocketed.
Lastly, are the materials the same? Old gears used to be case hardened in many cases. Many new gears are through hardened. Advice - always try to stick as near as possible to the original specification.

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souNdguy

02-11-2006 13:00:11




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 Re: gear oil in reply to gerard, 02-10-2006 15:10:41  
I'm not sure where you are finding the problems in my post.. but I posted info right out o fhte manual.. gear oil for the tranny and rear end, and hydro or utf oil in the hydro sump.

I'm also not sure where you think all this dirt is going to come from in the hydro sump? Lots of gear sumps old and new have no filters.. are splash lubed, and use the new spec oils.

While I prefer to use real gear oil is seperate sumps.. sometimes you don't have that option... like in open sump situations where the hydro draws off of the gear sump.. etc. Even my ford 5000 is like that... Kinda cuts your options for lube down to UTF in many cases.

Soundguy

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