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4000 S-O-S oddities

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David Tiefenbru

09-13-2001 20:43:14




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I found reference to some S-O-S transmissions that are slow to engage Park. I noticed that my newly rebuilt one seems to do this also. I took some notes:

When the selector is quickly moved from 1,2,3,R1,R2 to Park, the pressure at the Servo 2 test port holds, and only very slowly drops to zero. Even if the power is cut. Once power is cut, the selector has no effect. Park applies after a very long delay.

If the selector is moved from Neutral to Park, the Servo 2 pressure drops quickly, and the servo 3 pressure eases down in a few seconds, engaging Park. If the power is cut with the selctor in Neutral, Park applies fairly quickly.

The service manual claims that Neutral is engaged by oil pressure applied to Servo 2. When I found that Neutral had full pressure on both servo 2 and 3, I looked at the control valve and found the cam applies both servo 2 and 3. All gears work, and the cams match the book otherwise.

Dave

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Dan

09-17-2001 13:16:38




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 Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 09-13-2001 20:43:14  
Very interesting reading about the slow park in the SOS trans. I had two tractors with SOS’s one would go into park almost immediately and the other would take up to one minute, then I adjusted the bands on the fast one and now it takes about one minute to lock. Figure that. So band adjustment must have something to do with it. I sure don’t understand why, but I’ve adjusted the bands over and over and it still works slowly. With a gauge on the #2 servo it drops very slowly. I don’t know what the answer is so if anyone finds out let me know.
Dan

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David Tiefenbrunn

09-17-2001 21:58:38




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 Re: Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to Dan, 09-17-2001 13:16:38  
I would imagine that if the band was set where it was barely dis-engaged, that it would lock up quicker. #2 dropping in a minute time scale sounds like mine. Is there any difference if you snap the control quickly from Neutral to Park? How about 5th to Park? That should have pressure to #3, none to #2. (the slow one) Don't do this while moving. I don't know how the inching pedal would effect this. It may not be advisable or practical. I was doing these tests on a stand with less input power and little output load, so it would be difficult to damage anything.

I checked the other control valve I have, and it seems to have the cams set up differently - Servo #3 wouldn't get oil pressure in Neutral, making Park slow from any of the lower gears.

If it turns out to be that the Servo #2 oil bleed path is just too slow there may be a way to adjust it- but care / comprimise would be needed to avoid dropping into Park during shifts between 4th and 5th / 5th and 4th.

Dave

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Dan

09-18-2001 07:43:13




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 Re: Re: Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 09-17-2001 21:58:38  
Dave, thanks for your reply. I'll give it a try (from neutral to park) and let you know. I'm at my office without a manual, but I remember that when I overhauled the trans. the manual suggested leaving out an orifice, but I don't rember where it was, I did leave it out and mine still works slow. Most people that I talk to have the same problem.



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Dan

09-18-2001 07:38:41




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 Re: Re: Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 09-17-2001 21:58:38  
Dave, thanks for your reply. I'll give it a try (from neutral to park) and let you know. I'm at my office without a manual, but I remember that when I overhauled the trans. the manual suggested leaving out an orifice, but I don't rember where it was, anyway mine still works slow. Most people that I talk to have the same problem.



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George H

09-14-2001 20:36:53




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 Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 09-13-2001 20:43:14  

hi Dave,
The 'slow to Park' glitch is definitely caused by the interlock cover, which has three valves to sychronize the application/release of Bands 2 and 3, specifically for the shifts beween four and five. Like Texadian wrote, the interlock is supposed to prevent the transmission from momentarily going to Park. As an example, when pressure is applied to Servo 3 and the piston moves, the small valve pinned to the piston rod is withdrawn from the interlock cover which opens the oil exhaust passage for the Servo 2 piston. When doing pressure tests, I only moved the selector one position at a time--would have been better to experiment like you did. The gauge needle rose and fell instantly at all three servos, in all lever positions EXCEPT at Servo 2 when shifted from R2 to Park--pressure bled off slowly. My transmission locks in Park immediately, regardless of how the lever is moved, or whether the engine is running or stopped.

Off the subject a bit, manuals contain mistakes. I&T FO-20 is all screwed up. The 'Pressure Gage (sic) Readings' chart shows 180 psi to Servo 3 in R2, which is impossible. If the C carrier isn't held by B3, power can't be transmitted in a reverse direction. The 'Trouble Shooting Chart' uses one asterik to show spring-applied units (B2 and B3), and two asteriks to show pressure applied units (B1 and the clutches): The chart and the chart instructions contradict each other. I've also found at least one mistake in the SOS section of the Ford manual. Makes it interesting for the amateur. Pressure at Servos 2 and 3 in Neutral is a real puzzle. Some will think this is ridiculous, but I believe a cam was installed wrong at the factory. After all, with B2 and B3 released, the transmission does actually go to Neutral. In a discussion a while back, the man had two SOS tractors and could look at both control valves side by side. I don't remember any details, but it had to do with Nine and Ten, and the cams were different.

Well, I've made a long-winded post and provided absolutely no help. Is your transmission still on the test stand?

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David Tiefenbrunn

09-15-2001 19:16:47




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 Re: Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to George H, 09-14-2001 20:36:53  
Yes, but I moved it to my new place (where the rest of the tractor is) to re-install it. The test motor had to be disconnected to do this also. With any luck, it will be in the frame tomorrow. It drops into park fine from neutral, so I can live with it. I was thinking it isn't bad to go to Neutral first to stop before useing park anyways.

I was aware of the 4-5 shift timing to avoid park situation. I'm not sure if the slow park application was a side effect of that system, or intentional to avoid shock loads on the drive train. Perhaps the cam that applies pressure to both servo 2&3 was a later modification to make the thing more "driveable"?

I will look at the control cams from the spare transmission to see what they do in Neutral also.

Dave

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Texadian

09-14-2001 12:05:34




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 Re: 4000 S-O-S oddities in reply to David Tiefenbrunn, 09-13-2001 20:43:14  
David, I think what you describe is normal.
Band two and band three are spring applied, oil pressure released. When both are applied together, the transmission is mechanically locked in two gears (or locked in "park"). If you stop the engine while rolling, the oil pressure will bleed out of the servos for band two and three, the springs will slowly apply the bands and the transmission will lock up in park. Band three is applied in speeds: R2,R1,1,2,3,& 4th. Band two is applied in 5,6,7 & 8th. The fourth to fifth shift timing is critical or you'll get a momentary "park" lock up while making the shift. To prevent this there's an valve interlock system in the cover for the band two and three servos whch prevents both bands from applying at the same time while making the shift.

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