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Problems with replacement radiators.

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M. Vaughn

11-19-2007 08:30:54




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Hello, I posted a previous message stating that I had air bubbles in my cooling system on my NAA which caused my temp gage to waver. We couldn't find the problem despite replacing heads, head gaskets, sleeves, thermostats, etc. We finally located the problem and was wondering if any one else has had a similar experience or in case someone has the same issue. I bought a new radiator online that was manufactured in China and fit many models of Ford tractors. The radiator is too efficient. It causes the thermostat to cycle. I've tried three different temp range thermostats and it does it with all three. The only remedy is to cover the radiator with cardboard and only then will the temp gage even out and the steam bubbles stop. Remove the cardboard and the temp slowly starts to waver. Has anyone else had this same experience? Please let me know. Also, where can I get a quality radiator that won't do this? Thanks.

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sotxbill

11-20-2007 18:16:53




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 new thermostat problems in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
this is not unusual witht the newer thermostats... they do not leak and trap a pocket of cold water against them till almost too late...

fix is to drill a small hole, the size of a wooden match stick in the outer flange so that water will very slowly move through.. this will allow the thermostat to sense the water correctly as it warms up and will open sooner and not pulsate so bad.. make sure the hole is drill near the center of the flange... make sure the thermostat housing or head doesnot cover the small hole..

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Roger in Iowa

11-20-2007 16:57:32




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
Stick a thermometer into the bubbling water. If the temp is over 212 (with antifreeze) then something is wrong with water circulation, i.e. waterpump, or thermostat, or hose collapsing.

If water bubbling is less than 180 then I think you still have a combustion gas leak.

regards,
Roger in Iowa



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Ken in Michigan

11-20-2007 16:04:00




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
A handy tool I've used in the past, pressurizes the system. It takes the place of the radiator cap. Once installed, you pump it up and watch the gauge. This will rule out any leaks in the system.

Also....the belts and pulleys are all stock? Nothing turning faster than it is suppose too?
It would be nice to have a too efficient radiator in the middle of summer while under big loads.



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Dave in MS

11-20-2007 08:00:55




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to Old Ford Mechanic, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
I have to agree with the guys that say you have air trapped somewhere in the system. I know this may sound dumb, but are you shure your thermostat is not installed backwards?



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MarkB_MI

11-20-2007 03:29:05




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
The symptoms sure sound like a bad head gasket. I realize that you've replaced the head and head gasket, but have you run a check with a cooling system pressure tester? Put the tester on in place of the radiator cap and fire it up. If the pressure immediately heads for the moon, you've got a bad head or head gasket.



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NWMO 901 SOS

11-19-2007 20:05:54




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to phil lowe, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  

Bob said: (quoted from post at 16:30:51 11/19/07) "If it's boiling bubbles, they should be gone."

WOW... that's an unique comment!


Hello Bob,

That's what happens when I think out loud. My line of thinking was, with the thermostat removed there would be no chance of the coolant reaching a boiling temp. Thus, if the bubbles were created by boiling, they would no longer be present.

Chris

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RodInNS

11-19-2007 20:00:45




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
Forget the rad idea.
The first thing I'd check is the lower rad hose and make sure it's not collapsing when you open the throttle. If that's good I'd run a full cooling system flush to clear any crap out of there that could cause problems.
After that I would verify the gauge with a known good temperature gauge.
After that I would be inclined to change the water pump...
An efficient rad will just cool the coolant quicker, the stat will snap shut, and that's all until the temp rises again to open the stat. An efficient rad should only make it cycle quicker and hold a more stable temperature. If it's pushing air, you have another problem...

Rod

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gerard

11-19-2007 16:49:26




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
The idea that the radiator is over-efficient doesn"t hold water - couldn"t resist the pun - if that were the case engines would work fine but all show your symptoms in winter, when coling air through the rad causes a similar effect.
Reckon the impellor"s fallen off your water pump or there"s a major air lock somewhere. As others have said, the "stat responds to engine water, not rad water, so whether you"ve got a rad or a whole reservoir the other side of it makes no difference. Is the water flow satisfactory?(you"ll need to leave the "stat out to check this). No transit plugs left in radiator pipes?
Seen that before.

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Michaels Dad

11-19-2007 16:17:05




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to J. Johnson, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
Yes, the 4# cap is right.

Had the same problem with a Jeep Grand Wagoneer I had. Problem was trapped air. Solution (advice came from their forum) was to drill a 1/16" hole in the flange of the thermostat.

Worked for me.



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Bob

11-19-2007 15:34:12




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 It AIN'T the radiator! in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
I'm not sure what the problem is but it sure as the heck isn't the radiator flowing too much water!!!

Guys with performance cars replace the radiators with custom made units that flow tremenously more than the OEM units.

Do they get bubbly boily water 'cuz of that... I highly doubt it!



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NWMO 901 SOS

11-19-2007 13:41:28




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
MV,

Typing out loud here. I don't have my manual, but doesn't the water pump pull from the bottom of the radiator, push through the motor, temp sensor at the top rear??, and then return via the thermostat before dumping back into the radiator to move down and cool??
If this is right, I would be amazed that the radiator could cool the water so much that is was still less than 180 after traveling through the engine. Maybe I'm not looking at it right.

I would be more inclined, and agian I'm green, to think the temperature sending unit may be giving poor readings, because it's not keeping contact with the water?? If the pump was going out and was "hit and miss" it may stop providing enough pressure to keep the sending unit emersed, and miss register. That wouldn't explain why it straitens up when restricting air flow, but I lean towards cavitation or ?? for bubble production, not boiling. Cavitation can certainly cause pump failure as well.

Last thought, I would consider pulling the thermostat all together. If your theory is correct and there is sufficient coolant, it won't hurt anything, just run cool. If it's boiling bubbles, they should be gone. If you still see bubbles and it's running cool, you will know it must be something else.

Chris

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Bob

11-19-2007 15:30:51




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 11-19-2007 13:41:28  
"If it's boiling bubbles, they should be gone."

WOW... that's an unique comment!



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JML755

11-19-2007 10:46:03




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
The symptoms you describe sure don't make sense to me, but regarding your question on replacements, I recently bought a Ford tractor radiator replacement from an online site (can't remember which, info is at home) and the radiator was made in Ireland. Eveything fit perfectly and it's been great. Price was in the $300's vs $2400 quoted from the NH dealer



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CENTAUR

11-19-2007 10:42:51




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
I agree with (JOE TX) as some water pumps will also suck air and produce bubbles.Lossen belts and check for side movement of pump shaft as there should not be any.The cardboard may have changed the forces and may have prevented air from coming in.Also check water pump vent at the bottem for leakage,in and or out.Also check for endplay. CENTAUR



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Joe(TX)

11-19-2007 09:20:18




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
I don't think your analysis is correct. Like NWMO 901 SOS said. there are no steam bubbles at 180 deg. The radiator is not the problem. It is the job of the thermostat to regulate the temperature buy regulating the water flow.
It is possible that you have a water pump problem due to cavitation.



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M. Vaughn

11-19-2007 13:00:18




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to Joe(TX), 11-19-2007 09:20:18  
I appreciate all the feedback. Let me give some more info. I have years of mechanical experience and this problem stumped me, the mechanics at my local Ford tractor dealer, and the mechanics that I work with. So it's a difficult problem and any advice/input is greatly appreciated, so keep it coming. Here's the problem as follows; tractor heats up to normal range (green), needle drops to cool (red), simultaneously, bubbles come to the top of radiator as temp drops. Problem repeats. There is no smell/odor to the bubbles, and no trace of carbon monoxide in the cooling system. Oil looks fine, etc. I've torn the block down, replaced the sleeves, inspected the the block for cracks, put a re-manufactured head on with a composite gasket, re-torqued it warm, etc. I feel confident that I can rule out a compression leak. The water pump and all its components are in great shape. As far as steam and boiling points. I thought about that, and believe what is happening is that when the thermostat is closing because of the incoming antifreeze that is cooled too rapidly by the over-efficient radiator, my coolant is reaching close to the boiling point because it's being restricted and/or there might be a localized hot spot causing bubbles. The thermostat can't function properly if the coolant is being cooled too rapidly. Therefore, once the radiator is blocked, efficiency reduced, the temperature is able to steady in the normal operating range. You can literally see the gradual reduction in fluctuation and eventual non-movement of the temp needle as the radiator is blocked, and the system evens out. I've used three different thermostats, the latest being from the dealership, so I can rule out a malfunctioning thermostat. As far as these universal radiators that fit 20 different models. In hindsight, I'd be surprised if the radiator for a 134 engine is exactly the same as the one for a 172. If you compare the original to the repro, there are less tubes, especially on the backside of the radiator, which I thought supported my theory of an over efficient radiator. That is why I wanted to post this, because someone would most certainly have had the same problem if I'm on the right track. Sorry for the length, but this problem has driven me nuts/mad. Any help/thoughts?

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Joe(TX)

11-20-2007 09:39:07




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 13:00:18  
A couple more comments
The thermostat should not "snap" open or closed. It should open gradualy. If it is not the thermostat, it is the pump. It's not the radiator.
If you see bubbles, you have the cap off and the system is not in a normal condition.
If the tractor is not overheating, why are you worrying about it?



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RickB

11-19-2007 14:11:11




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 Not the radiator in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 13:00:18  
"the thermostat is closing because of the incoming antifreeze that is cooled too rapidly by the over-efficient radiator"

The t-stat is not exposed to incoming coolant from the radiator. It is exposed to heated coolant from the block and cylinder head. Compare the lower hose temp with the upper hose temp using a non-contact thermometer. That will give you an idea of how efficient the radiator is. After all you have done, replacing the water pump is the next logical step.

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NWMO 901 SOS

11-19-2007 09:00:27




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to M. Vaughn, 11-19-2007 08:30:54  
MV,

I've not had the experience to provide the direction you are looking for. I was trying to reason through your post and had a question. You use the term "steam bubbles". Water will create steam at 212 F or 100 C. If you are using (and I am sure you are) antifreeze, that decreases the freezing temp. and raises the boiling temp. If you are truly seeing "steam bubbles", it would seem your coolant must be reaching a temp of 212+?? Stadard thermostat runs in the 180 range, shouldn't be "steam". With all that said, if covering a portion of the radiator stops the bubbles and gives good stable temps in the 180 range, that seems like a good solution. Might consider covering with a wire screen over the whole thing and see if that restricts the air enough. Would look better and maybe be darn near invisible, untill its covered with dirt, etc.

Now my science above is not quite correct because I am not accounting for the coolant being under pressure (12-13 psi), which changes the boiling temp also, but if I am thinking right, pressure should also increase the boiling temp.

Just typing out loud, probably won't help you, but others might weigh in.

Chris

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Old Ford Mechanic

11-19-2007 15:50:27




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 11-19-2007 09:00:27  
If i'm not mistaken that system uses a 4# cap.



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Jim in NY

11-20-2007 13:55:43




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 Re: Problems with replacement radiators. in reply to Old Ford Mechanic, 11-19-2007 15:50:27  
Sometime ago I mentioned the water pump as a culpret of cavitation and since then you say it isn't the pump... perhaps you are correct in saying that as you look at it at a glance, per seŽ , however as I had stated before in my water pump situation that greater then 75% of the fins were worn down to where only 25% of the lengths of them were working and that 25% was producing the bubbles abd cavitation; however,what i failed to mention in my past experiences with pumps is that I once found a pump that the impellar spun on the shaft and it only did it when it was warmed by the engine heated coolant and at above idle situations. I am confident in saying that I'll bet that others have run into this same situation with the pump shaft(s) and impellar and even more so that cured the problem by replacing the pump without even noticing the actual cause(s). Regardless, with all your thoughts about an over efficeint radiator, all it would do is cool more ! The other Gent had a very promising thought also that I have run into : a collapsed radiator hose that collapes even more as it is warmed " under pressure"... Hope this helps.

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