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battery drain

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Air Force One

12-21-2007 16:05:28




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OLD: You mentioned to check for a drain somewhere in your system....below do I just take the positive cable off battery and go between post and cable as you mentioned a while back? thanks..Paul

I agree with the others.. if the key was on and points closed.. you just had a few hundred feet of copper wire betweent he battery posts. i'd expect it to be 0.0v at the end of a week. if it won't take a charge.. bat probably had problems to begin with.. though flattening a standard non-deepcycle battery is not very good for it.. etc..
Once you get the new battery in, disconnect the + wire and put in a testlamp between + cable and post.. if lamp is on.. you have a drain..

Soundguy

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NWMO 901 SOS

12-23-2007 20:51:59




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 Re: battery drain in reply to John Skolits, 12-21-2007 16:05:28  

john_bud said: (quoted from post at 11:43:54 12/23/07) Chris,

My Opinion is that one of us is comparing apples to squash. The original posters question was about removing which cable from a tractor's battery to check for a drain. Any other response about removing power is "squash", eh?

jb


Hey Johnbud,

Thanks for all of your input and help to so many of us that need it. We each share from our experiences and it would appear my experiences are more like yours. Soundguy has had different experiences as he has done considerably more electornics work. I am sure he has done a lot more work on tractors than me as well. While being careful is easily said, it can be easily overlooked when you are in a hurry, etc..

Somewhere we started dealing with AC which is considerably different. It would seem if there was any chance of grounding a 6V or 12V through myself to the earth it surely would have happened as I have connected many batteries without the ability to levitate. The only risk I have seen with 6V or 12V is shorting the circuit as previously discussed and that is most easily avoided by removing the ground.
In Soundguy's defense, this thread did start with chasing an electrical drain, in which case, I am sure he is correct, that it is best to prove the ground and test the circuit on the hot side. Somewhere though, a general safety issue was raised with "never remove the ground" which doesn't add up for me if I am under the hood and don't want to accidently short my battery.

Sorry for the long post about something sufficiently covered, I was really just looking for an excuse to post a picture from today. While we were considerably warmer than you, it was in the teens this morning when I got up to blade a little snow. The old tractor has started great so far this winter and been helpful.

third party image

I see in the photo, it would appear I was just out to play, but there were drifts of two feet or so and the van gets easily stuck. The weight is simply a lumber box filled with bricks I threw together. Seems to work pretty well.

Chris

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Jim in NY

12-22-2007 19:30:42




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 Re: battery drain in reply to Air Force One, 12-21-2007 16:05:28  
From a testing standpoint it is best to leave the ground intact and carefully and respectfully remove the hot side to test for drains -- in that way the ground is proved and the drains are subjected to electrical draws via switchs, fuses and loads/ requirements.

In auto manuals they specify both ways, either/or and both..... however, they are not directly questioning trobleshooting drain problems.

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NWMO 901 SOS

12-22-2007 15:08:58




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 Re: battery drain in reply to Ben.So.Tex, 12-21-2007 16:05:28  
Hey Soundguy,

Buy disconnecting the ground side, you keep from accidently grounding the hot side of the battery to the car/tractor body. If you remove the hot side, you leave the car/tractor body in play. I've accidently grounded the battery and put on a lightshow a few of times. I finally learned, that if I removed the ground side, I would avoid the accidental ground. Even when removing from the battery, if you remove the ground side there is no threat of short, whereas, removing the hot side only, you can easily short to the car/tractor body just getting the battery cable off.

Chris

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soundguy

12-22-2007 21:28:14




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 Re: battery drain in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 12-22-2007 15:08:58  
In that one operation.. yes.. remove ground before disconnecting hot.. that's a no brainer.. or should be for anyone that owns anything that runs on electrons.

Past that.. our issue here is trying to sniff out a power drain.. to do that.. the dround path needs to be intact.. so we can eliminate 1 circuit at a time.

For safety sake.. pull the ground cable.. putll the hot cable.. reconnect the ground cable.. then insert the lamp in the hot side and start pulling circuits one by one till you find the load causing the draw. By doing this you can also ohm out individual circuits once they are seperated from power and make sure they have a good ground connection.. which is very important in general.. but even more so on a 6v system.

The 'hot wrench' argument appears to be more of an exception, vs a rule, in this diagnostic case.

soundguy

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soundguy

12-21-2007 22:11:05




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 Re: battery drain in reply to Air Force One, 12-21-2007 16:05:28  
As old said.. technically won't mattery what post you take off... however coming from an electronics person.. we never 'lift the ground'.. we always leave it intact for safety, and lift the hot line ..etc.. thus my recomendation to disconnect the positive cable, and then insert a test lamp between the cable and the battery post.. etc..

If it glows.. you have a drain.. at that point start disconnectiong suspect wires.. probably starting near the alternator till the lamp dies.. when it does.. the last wire you lifted was the drain...

soundguy

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john_bud

12-22-2007 06:47:19




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 Re: battery drain in reply to soundguy, 12-21-2007 22:11:05  
Lift the hot is better than lifting the ground???

Silly me, now why do I weld so many wrenches to the fenders every time I try and lift the hot?

jb



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soundguy

12-22-2007 13:26:23




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 Re: battery drain in reply to john_bud, 12-22-2007 06:47:19  
I'm not following what you are trying to say?

Electrically / safety speaking.. you always leave ground paths intact.. and instead, you put switches in power lines.

Ever notice that all your switches and fuses are on the power side.. not the ground? it's a safety reason.. that way the 'device' is not ungrounded.. an ungrounded device may conduct thru YOU to ground, if there is a power fault.

not sure of what your wrench comment was trying to say..

soundguy

Soundguy

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john_bud

12-22-2007 19:02:03




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 Re: battery drain in reply to soundguy, 12-22-2007 13:26:23  
Well, let's just say we do it your way on a car battery. Put the wrench on the hot side battery cable nut and bolt. Turn the wrench 1/2 turn, OOPS! Touched the fender, huge spark and a loose cuss word. Put the wrench back on, slips a bit, Huge spark again as the 850 CCA's jump across the wrench to a piece of metal. In the worst case, hydrogen gas from the battery can ignite or gas in the carb can ignite. Sparks are a "bad thing", unless they are on the end of spark plugs.

Now, let's do it the way the books tell us to do it. Loosen the ground cable first. The wrench accidentally hits the fender - nothing happens. The fender and the ground post are both at the same potential. The 850 CCA's don't jump any where. You take off the ground connection then start on the hot side and accidentally hit the fender. Again, nothing happens as there is now no ground path. No sparks, no potential ignition of any fuels, No drama, no excitement, no loose cuss words.

Circuit breakers are on the hot side as that is the only sure way to break the path. Multiple ground paths may exist, but only one hot path.

I could be all wrong, dunno.

jb

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soundguy

12-22-2007 21:04:06




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 Re: battery drain in reply to john_bud, 12-22-2007 19:02:03  
Ok,... you are compairing apples to squash.

In your example, you do need to remove the ground cable from the post first, before fiddling with the power cable... or you can just be carefull and not bang your wrench into an adjacent metal surface.. i try to avoid that.. chips the paint and all.

In your example o fthe multiple ground patsh.. sure multiple may exist.. however, you want the best conductor to be the one the electrons flow thru. A solid metal to metal connection conducts better than your hand touching something, down thru your leg to the earth.

That's why GFCI circuits work the way they do.. ground is the safety when you are working with high voltage.. you want the high voltage to find it's return thru sopmething other than you... if a fault occured and the hot wire touched the case, and there was no ground or it was disconnected.. it's possible that the user becomes the next best conductor...

Again... switches and fuses don't goin ground paths. Ground should be common. and all at the same potential.. otherwise you can get weird things like ground loops, etc.

Bout' the only place it is common to lift grounds are in full isolation switches, and in audio applications where you have a difference in ground potential between 2 different pieces of gear.. and you lift the ground on one end to prevent grounf current conduction.. which, in audio, usually ends up being a nice 60hz buzz.

Your ancedotal example of burning a hole in your fender is closer to the exception than the rule. You want to look at safety.. look at higher votlage apps. Grounds are bonded semi-permanently.. and hots are the ones switched.. you don't want floating grounds.

save your paint and don't beat your tools into your fenders.. use an insulator pad.

In most applications you de-energize a circuit before working on it.. in a 'battery' application, your ONLY RZ to do this is to pop the common terminal off first... ( or slip a glove over your wrench, so when you slip it doesn't chip paint or arc/spark.

soundguy

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john_bud

12-23-2007 08:43:54




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 Re: battery drain in reply to soundguy, 12-22-2007 21:04:06  
Chris,

My Opinion is that one of us is comparing apples to squash. The original posters question was about removing which cable from a tractor's battery to check for a drain. Any other response about removing power is "squash", eh?

And my examples are not made up (presented in a humorous mannor, yes). In my youth, I arc'ed and sparked quite a bit and one time caught the engine compartment on fire from it. Yes, young and dumb do seem to go together. The grease went out quick and not much harm done. Experience and wisdom have expanded with age and the arc'ing and sparking have been reduced.

And yes, switches and plugs do have multiple grounds. You never hooked up where there is one white wire, one black wire and one bare wire? The ground and the bare are separate (ie multiple) ground paths. And I even understand that GFI looks at the potential between those multiple paths and flicks out, saving your bacon when the hot goes to ground thru you.

Hope you have nice holiday and Merry Chrismas!

(Just got done snow blowing in 30 mph gusts and -15F wind chill. Brrrrr. I lllllove Wwwwwwsiconssssinnn.)

jb

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soundguy

12-24-2007 13:54:28




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 Re: battery drain in reply to john_bud, 12-23-2007 08:43:54  
Technically the white is a neutral return, and the ground is a safety.. but electrically speaking.. both hit ground as far as the electrons are concerned.

soundguy



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old

12-21-2007 22:20:59




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 Re: battery drain in reply to soundguy, 12-21-2007 22:11:05  
Sound I have a question for you. You say never lift the ground then why is it in all the newer manuals if say to disconnect the - battery cable before working on the car/truck which would be the ground?? Just asking to find out since as I said the newer manauls say take off the ground not the hot lead

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soundguy

12-22-2007 13:30:15




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 Re: battery drain in reply to old, 12-21-2007 22:20:59  
In those case you are disconnecting power completely.

In my reference, we are not disconnection power completely.. we are leaving a circuit running thru the lamp. i always like to leave ground intact with no extra resistance in line with it.. otherwise a power source might rather conduct to 'ground' thru me.. vs that lamp.

Not so much danger in a 6v system. though on a 12v system you can feel a tingle. and on 24 and 36v systems you can DEFFINATELY get burned.

I have a feeling in the car manuals.. they are more concerned with the sensitive electronics in the car's brain.. then they are about the mechanic.. etc. ( FWIW, my dodge manual says to completely disconnect the battery.. etc.. I'm sure every manual has it's own chinese translation.. )

soundguy

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old

12-21-2007 19:40:20




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 Re: battery drain in reply to Air Force One, 12-21-2007 16:05:28  
Doesn't matter which cable you take off because if you take one off or the other off you can test it just the same. Tehn from there its just a matter of finding where you power draw is from and why.



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36 coupe

12-22-2007 02:35:18




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 Re: battery drain in reply to old, 12-21-2007 19:40:20  
Less chance of sparking a wrench if you disconnect the neg cable in a 12v system.



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