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OT - water for fuel

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NWMO 901 SOS

05-19-2008 18:33:57




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Good evening friends,

At the risk of seeming dense or gullible, I wanted to ask if any of you have studied or tried any of the water for fuel kits (gimmiks) common on the net. The concept of using the Hydrogen from water to provide additional combustion is quite appealing, I just don't know that it can be done for a $100 do it yourself kit and some supplies. But, when I first heard you can run used vegatable oils as fuel in diesels I thought that was pretty crazy too, but our pastor bought an old Mercedes diesel with a cooler in the back to hold the used oil and drove it by to visit. So I guess you just never know unless you investigate.

I'd also be curious if anyone has experience or has looked into EVs. The idea of buying an old VW and loading it up with batteries and an electric motor seems reasonable. As gas goes up, my other half gets worried and starts talking about moving back to town to be closer to work. I'd rather not, so I am looking at any and all options that a handyman can do to save $$, particularly on transportation.

Any and all input is welcome. I understand this isn't the best forum, but over the last year or so, I have come to respect many/most of the folks here and value their (your) opinion. Thanks for any input.

Chris

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NWMO 901 SOS

05-21-2008 10:54:26




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to Dean, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  

TONY JACOBS said: (quoted from post at 10:19:03 05/21/08) Hello Chris , Do you have a link to MythBusters ? I spent an hour looking for anything on there with regards to Hydrogen / Water for Fuels and found nothing . Thanks Tony Jacobs


Hello Tony,

As I went back and searched, I realized what I found was a discussion board tied to mythbusters. I thought they had done a program in April of this year on it, but I could be wrong. That would be from my searches, we don't have cable/dish.

I have linked what I did find, which makes since from the chemistry side, but I haven't crunched the numbers myself, so I can't say it is definitive.

water 4 gas

Chris

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TONY JACOBS

05-21-2008 08:19:03




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Hello Chris , Do you have a link to MythBusters ? I spent an hour looking for anything on there with regards to Hydrogen / Water for Fuels and found nothing . Thanks Tony Jacobs



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sotxbill

05-20-2008 10:30:25




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
volkswagen is bringing out the 50 state legal jetta diesel in sept... the demos are arriving at the dealers as we speak.. They will get about 38 city and 48 hyway??

my 2001 5 speed diesel jetta gets a constant 42mpg in combo driving..my wifes 2006 jetta diesel with the dsg (auto)6sp transmission was getting 38 mpg but has finally moved up to 40mpg at 36,000 miles of driving. I have had about 6 or so jetta diesels and a couple of rabbit pickups...

still have my pos dodge with the great cummins and it gets 19mpg empty and 8 mpg pulling 25,000lbs(yes, its a bit overweight).

If vw would bring back the small diesel pickup again, it would do a lot for most of us.. but ever now and again, you gotta go for the big boys to haul round bales and haul tractors.

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john in la

05-20-2008 13:53:19




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to sotxbill, 05-20-2008 10:30:25  
I wonder how well they will sell.

I do not know what features the new Jetta will have but we just bought a new Toyota Echo automatic for 14,500. That is most likely 4 to 5 thousand dollars less than what the Jetta is going to cost and I think they are about the same size car.

We are getting a steady 35 mpg combined with a gas motor. At current fuel prices you would have to get about 43.5 mpg out of the Jetta diesel to average the same dollars per mile.

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trucker40

05-20-2008 08:06:54




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Hydrogen is almost propane.Propane is called dirty hydrogen.You can burn hydrogen in any internal combustion engine the same way you burn propane.Now how you get hydrogen out of water is another thing,but I have seen on the internet that somebody did it.It might be possible,and if you could,you wouldnt need a gas station to go 80 miles a day if you could make 5 gallons of hydrogen a day.The bad part is you have to compress it and put it in a tank after you distill it out of the water.Might be easier to make ethanol.

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36 coupe

05-20-2008 05:08:41




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
The cost of using hydrogen fuels are too high .The fueling stations cost in the millions.One writer on electric cars felt that there wouldnt be enough lead available to make the batteries needed.Plus the electricity needed to charge all these electric car battery banks just isnt available.Solar is still too expensive.Hydro power will be our last electric power available, yet enviro nuts plan to buy and destroy 3 hydro power dams in Maine so the salmon can swim up stream.A fishway could be built for far less money at each dam than the cost of taking out the dam.There is a salmon fishing season for the first time in many years but you have to release any fish caught.Windpower systems large enough to produce useful power cost millions.I used my truck to haul seed potatoes and other supplies yesterday.If the gas I needed cost less I could have have bought a gate for the garden lot.High fuel costs will force us into a deep depression that will last for many years.Baler twine was 37.00 yesterday and I saw 50 lb bags of lime selling for 8.00.A bag of 10 10 10 fertlizer cost 13.60 plus 68 cents sales tax.I will not grow any vegetables for sale this year.The money you get for produce wont cover the cost of growing now.Ill grow just what I need.

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Brian in MA

05-20-2008 05:19:40




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to 36 coupe, 05-20-2008 05:08:41  
20-5-25 fertilizer is pushing $600/ton. That equates to $1/bale harvested in fertilizer alone for me. Not to mention the fuel, twine and parts costs to fill the barn this year. It's scary.



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Brian in MA

05-20-2008 04:06:00




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
In my opinion, do the math carefully. If you drive 40 miles each way, that's 80 miles per day, 400 miles per week, for 50 weeks per year, that's 20,000 miles. I don't know what you drive, but if you get 15 mpg (my 1998 Chevy K1500 with 350 for instance), you are using 1,333 gallons to commute. At $4/gallon, that's $5,300. If you double that fuel economy (Honda Civic? for instance) you can save $2,650 on commuting in a year. If you go to a Diesel VW Rabbit can you get 45 MPG and save even more, but right now diesel is $.75 higher than gas? Again, I don't know what you drive, so would you trade in what you have and buy something comparable in price, upgrade, add another car to the fleet for commuting, etc, all weighs in the equation. For me, I need the truck a couple of days per week, so I can't trade it in. In Taxachusetts, the registration, insurance, excise tax, etc on a second vehicle will be a minimum of $1,000 per year, so now the potential savings is $1,650. Now look at the purchase price and in Massachusetts again we have sales tax at 5% of the sale price. You have maintenance and upkeep on 2 vehicles, which should not be different from using one vehicle with more mileage, but it could be.

I agree, a bolt on improvement to double our economy would be a home run, but I don't think it exists. The whole grease car market is going to change as our government is realizing that there is no highway tax on McDonald's used grease and they will catch up with it, then the supply vs demand will also make free used grease a commodity worth $3/gallon as more people want it. Do the math, it might make sense for you to add a more economical commuter vehicle, but it didn't for me.

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NWMO 901 SOS

05-19-2008 20:18:39




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Thanks guys,

I've spent the last half hour looking at the mythbusters site and followed the science that shares exactly what you are saying. Energy balance doesn't work.
I know the EVs aren't really popular yet, but if I could just get a 40 mile drive at reasonable speeds, I could plug it in once at work and use my company truck through the day. I've heard some of the concerns about the batteries and disposal, but they will surely be recyclying even the Lithium batteries before long. Thanks for all the input thus far, any additional input on EVs would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

I remember quite a few diesel VWs, rabbit, etc., but don't know what type of mileage they got. What other old diesels might a person look for?

Chris

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john_bud

05-19-2008 19:59:41




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Used to be you could tell the hucksters a mile away. Problem with the net is that the scam artists are now able to dedicate more time and effort to ripping you off.

The energy used to separate H2 from H2O is far greater than the usable energy from combusting the H2 again into H2O. It's a perpetual motion machine in disguise.

jb



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john in la

05-19-2008 19:54:14




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Hydrogen is a volatile fuel so it needs a tank like LP and this adds extra weight. This is why they are trying to convert water to hydrogen on board as needed. The problem is the conversion of energy to convert the water as compared to energy output of the hydrogen.
I have not done any research on it but I do not think they have it figured out yet.

Electricity would be a good alterative if we did more research into wind or hydro power plants. Nuclear may be a way but the tree huggers are against that because of the waste storage.
The real problem with using electricity for cars is we have not come up with a good enough battery.
It may work well in stop and go traffic for a city person but in the country the battery is dead before you get half way to where you are going.

A really good alterative is a small diesel car. Problem is the EPA has banded those in the US. They use to sell them but they are few and far between now. Is that the government protecting big oil or truly air standards??? Who knows!!!
If we could sell small diesel cars more research may be done on crop based diesel.

Crop based ethanol is good but our climate and mass suburb sprawl onto farm land makes this impossible.
Yes ethanol can be made from corn but sugar cane is much better. Problem is sugar cane needs a very hot climate. It barely grows where I live. (30th parallel) Grows much better farther south.
On the other hand using corn will not work because we do not have enough land to replace oil because you get so little fuel out of a acre of corn.

Then again we could all change our ways and follow some of the Amish ways and tell big oil to stick it where the sun does not shine.
Yea I know.... That will be the day!!!!! !!

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RodInNS

05-19-2008 19:47:59




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
The only use for H2O in any present day engine is for the purpose of steam production through the scavenging of waste heat. Pullers do that for maximum power from the displacement they have to work with, not fuel efficiency. There are also concepts of 6 cycle engines that essentially do th esame thing to scavenge heat and convert to steam. Keep in mind that water when turned to steam will expand 1700 times it's volume, so there is a tremendous amount of power there. The problem with those concept engines is that they haven't quite figuered out the logistics of operating that system continent wide.... Water tanks freeze. On the bright side, I believe in theory they managed to drag the relative efficiency of a spark ignition engine from around 30 % to somewhere in the range of 60% with the 6 cycle engine, so there is a tremendous gain to be had if they can make it practical.

Rod

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NWMO 901 SOS

05-19-2008 19:28:51




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to john in la, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  

old said: (quoted from post at 21:09:55 05/19/08) Myths busters did a show on that a year or 2 ago and found them to be a waste of $$. Again one of those wish to get something for nothing things that do not work with out doing it 100% right which a normal car/truck/tractor engine can not be done with. Now if you had a LP tractor and could use pure Hydrogen maybe


Thanks old,

I'll Google myth busters and see what I can find.

Chris

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old

05-19-2008 19:09:55




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to NWMO 901 SOS, 05-19-2008 18:33:57  
Myths busters did a show on that a year or 2 ago and found them to be a waste of $$. Again one of those wish to get something for nothing things that do not work with out doing it 100% right which a normal car/truck/tractor engine can not be done with. Now if you had a LP tractor and could use pure Hydrogen maybe



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Bendee

05-20-2008 05:43:44




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to old, 05-19-2008 19:09:55  
Has anybody considered using LPG,? a bit down on power but better proposition on unleaded or diesel..



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keithr1

05-21-2008 09:30:18




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to Bendee, 05-20-2008 05:43:44  
in the diesel have you can consender using cooking oil. my nephew and 6 other people are running it in their trucks cost is 20 cents a gallon..



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BrianM

05-22-2008 14:30:33




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 Re: OT - water for fuel in reply to keithr1, 05-21-2008 09:30:18  
You can make HOH by putting about 8 to 10 amps into water using a variety of metal plate designs. Not sure of the hydrogen gas flow rates, but you would basically be using the waste energy from the alternator to generate the HOH gas. That's the theory anyway. I haven't tried it yet, but it's on my plans for the next year or so for my Jeep. It's the old Brown Gas Theory that never panned out...

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