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fence posts, hedge, concrete in?

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Kansas JB

11-13-2005 07:33:17




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Any opinions on using concrete in the bottom 1/2 of the hole? Been hearing that concrete will wick moisture and rot posts quicker. Didn't know if the hedge I'm going to cut would be affected by this. I am NOT driving the posts, using 12 inch auger 4 ft down. On my last fence around my yard, I ended up having to pull the posts before installing wire and pour in concrete as the H braces were moving. It was awfully dry and the soil was pulling away from the posts which were put in 4 months earlier. All insight APPRECIATED!

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shattercane

02-21-2006 14:30:55




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
I have been wrapped up in this conversation for the last 5 years, so it is funny to see that it is not just a local argument, but obviously a farmer argument. I am in the process of fencing in 70 acres right now and can attest to the fact that it is all about how you put in your corners. I went with the horizontal pipe roughly 4 feet off of the ground with two holes drilled in the hedge which were filled with re-bar (just to hold the pipe in place. Then 9 ga. wire twisted tight from the bottom of the corner to the top of the next post of that run. Of the half mile I have done thus far, the first stretch is tight and the second is not. Same practice different results...either way, my cattle will not be leaving the pasture within 20 years. That's why they invented stretchers and beer right?

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Punchie

11-14-2005 20:01:48




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
HI

First a basic on how we set locust posts, first spit are better the let the water out. Size about 1/2 bigger than a 4x4. I would say about the size of 20-25 sq inches from the smallest end at least or bigger, Soil is a sandy loome to heavy clay and some are in rocks.

Whole has to be big enough to Tamp with a Tampping bar. 8 x 12 inch across. We set are 8' post 30 " deep no deeper than 36, just too hard to dig much deeper and what for. We are in a area that ground feezes to about 12" . To start the post only place as much earth as you can pack tight with the Tamping Bar. ABout two spade shovel fulls. Takes about 4-5 sets of these to get her packed and you stop at the top. It maybe a good idea to stop about half way, as to go see if the post is setting up tight, if not you may have to try again until you get the hang of it.

Setting a corner for any wire, We use a double size corner post and the next post from corner just about the same size. about 8'-12' apart. use a cross brace (( YES A CROSS BRACE)) one. On the corner, if your using 4 ' wire system go up the post about 34"-38" and make a notch to hold the cross brace (like the point of an arrow. . Now go to the next post and make a notch about 4'-6" above the ground. Now you will need a cross brace, we save small locut trees for these. About the size in area of a 4x4. cut to the notches in the posts making the cross brace just a little longer( you will need to force the brace in). Nail in with a good 20 penny nail. It is going to take a few to get the hand and eye for doing this. Also a good idea to leen cornner post out away from the fence line just a little. I would say that the locost Dad and I have set this way average 30 years that was for rounds split post will last about 10 years more, I have never replace a locust post before 8 years. Good luck !!

Teddy

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NEsota

11-15-2005 11:20:41




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Punchie, 11-14-2005 20:01:48  
Have heard recommendations on filling the bottom of the hole with something porous when using concrete. That way the concrete does not trap the moisture at the lower end of the post. For my money when using an H brace, the cross piece does the most good if it is horizontal and the nearer to the top of post the better.



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Punchie

11-15-2005 06:08:43




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Punchie, 11-14-2005 20:01:48  
More about the spilt Locust ( not locost) . I was looking at Grandad's old fence line one day and thinking why did he split the posts. Asked Dad and he said he put those little old post in around 63 , dad like a telephone size post LOL. Dad I asked: Why do we all ways use round post, they are stronger. I'm Thinking ( and that gets me into trouble). Started to look at our old fence lines at not one round post to be had, and to my sirprise most were from 40, 50 maybe 60 years ago. Most would not hold allot of wieght now put would work on electric single wire. The sizes I use are maybe over kill but, Dads farm and if that what we like that is how it is going to be.

OK Hedge or Osage Orange shold be a little better than locust (years of use) , maybe harder to split and to cut. If I recall it can have a twist grain to the wood.

If use use the cross brace to use a gate, place a cable from top to top , Gate post back , if using a sheep style fence or stronger No need the wire will hold. Make the gate post lean back to the fence line just a little. The gates wight and the force of the brace will make it straight.

One other thing, If you do a good job you will be ask to help with others, I hate fence work so; I say you help me and I'll help you that puts a stop to you having to help any one else.

Teddy

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seth_ia

11-14-2005 20:00:49




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
I'm really not in the mood to give advise, but I will anyway. Use a post pounder. Putting concrete around a post is plain stupid. If you want the post to out last you, put gravel around it. That was what my neighbor was just doing. He got caught in the post auger and was killed. A ponder sets the post firm instantly and pounded post will long out last a post set in concrete.



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Rauville

11-14-2005 08:41:33




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
On some of our gate posts, and other locations we have poured a couple of sacks of Quickcrete in the bottom of the posthole. Here, there is no need to add water, the moisture in the soil will be enough to set it up in time.
Even with horses pushing around, we've had 8" diameter wood posts break off at ground level, rather than getting pushed over.
On H bracing at the corners, we attach the cross bracing with 2 wraps of #9 wire around the upright posts and through a hole drilled in the cross brace. Twist the wire tight, add some diagonal wire bracing, and you have a corner that will last a long time.

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vernon

11-14-2005 11:24:44




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Rauville, 11-14-2005 08:41:33  
Rauville,
I understand what your saying, but hedge isn't like any other "wood". There is NO animal going to break off an 8" hedge post by pushing on it. The older it gets the tougher it gets. To a point you will never drive a nail in it.



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paul

11-14-2005 08:11:44




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
A lot depends upon your soil type.

'Here' you don't even need any braces - the soil pretty much locks the post in if you go 4 feet deep.

Concrete is an aweful thing 'here' as well, but in other climates people like it, so some of this depends upon your climate & soil type.

--->Paul



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kyhayman

11-14-2005 07:51:52




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
I started using dense grade with fines instead of concrete for setting dug posts. Lets water drain and sets as tight as concrete. 36" deep on line post, 40" deep on corners. For corners, I keep hearing the merits of H brances but, for me, I much prefer angle braces.



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Jason, NW Ontario

11-14-2005 07:14:31




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
I wouldn't suggest concrete either. I'd agree that corner posts the deeper the better. One thing I read from a century old reprint was quite clever (if you feel like working way too hard): at the bottom of your posts, cut notches that will point back up to the surface at about 45 degrees. Find good sized rocks that will fit into those notches. Of course this means your hole is huge and would be dug out with a backhoe. When an arrow is pulled out it takes much more work - same principle. It turns out my grandfather used this method on his family farm over 60 years ago. The fence posts were still set just as deep when the property was sold 29 years later.

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Vernon

11-14-2005 06:48:29




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
Well I read all the posts so far and looks like you can take your pick. I live in Kansas and have set hedge posts both ways.(concrete and tamped) I learned from my Father 40+ years ago how to build a fence that will last. Bracing is your choice, both work well. The bracing is to help keep the corner from leaning. If your corner is pulling out, you didn't get it deep enough. I NEVER set a corner that isn't 5' deep. Yea I know, that's a lot of work. Do you want to do it right or do it over?If your posts are fresh cut I would probly tamp, if they are dry then strip the bark and go either way. Pipe or Hedge? Pipe is prettier Hedge will last longer. Granted that is an 8" or larger hedge post. Call me if you want to talk. I live South east of Wichita. 316-775-3529 evenings.

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John A.

11-13-2005 21:12:47




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
JB, I usually do not disput what someone else says but here I will say that Sid is as full of crap as a Thanksgiving Turkey. And doesn't have a clue to this subject.
In your western Kansas sand or tighter soils. You need a post hole for corners 4ft deep. Bell out the bottom of the hole. Then go from there.....
As Coloken said X braceing tends to pull out a cornerpost thus slacking a fence. Concrete around a wood post will eventually be a problem.
Talk to professional fence builders in your area and see which technique works best. Drive the country roads look at older fences, (10 yrs old or older) stop and ask the farmer, who built it, how it was built, how long has it been up. etc, etc.
Rainfall in your area will affect the longivity to wood post, rot, concrete and the like.
Again, hope this helps!
Later,
John A.

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Let me try again

11-13-2005 22:49:26




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to John A., 11-13-2005 21:12:47  
If they did not fail because they where put in wrong why did they fail



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Sid

11-13-2005 22:44:36




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to John A., 11-13-2005 21:12:47  
I did not claim to be a fence expert. But I do know what I have seen. If the ones that I saw fail were not a result of putting them in right please tell me why they failed.



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John A.

11-14-2005 20:55:08




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Sid , 11-13-2005 22:44:36  
Sid, Hi, I will agree that installation is the largest problem with most fences. Then technique is second. Followed by wrong materials.
I comming at this subject from a dad that was on a highline post setting crew back in the mid 50s. They set poles about 6 ft deep. with the bottom belled out....Not tapered in a V fashion like a "Duck nest"
So the guys who are saying one needs 4 to 5 ft of depth are on target. The soil type in your area will dictate a lot of what will be done too. In areas of heavy freeze/thaw so post get jacked out in time, then concideration has to be made for that. Knowing your local soil type is critical. For the little things that are different from clay soils that are sespitable to hi/lo moisture to rock/ledge rock,to hard calichie is what will make a 5 to 10 yr fence and a 40 yr fence. The cost of labor is the same the material is the same One just shoots himself in the foot with wrong techniques or materials and the like.
Down here in the heavy black clay areas I know of corners where the fencers will drive post till they can't drive any more. On one place the corner post had extensions added to make 15ft in the ground and 6 ft in the air.
X braceing the wire will in time Slack a fence. That is a face of Life!
So in this example with the corner post far right the first brace post just left and the second brace post just left of the first brace post. The wire is being pulled to the left. The 3 post corner will look like a double H.....{I-I-I}Like this to the left here. The brace wires should run from the top of the first brace post to the bottom of the cornerpost. and the top of the second brace post to the bottom of the first brace post.
So if you for a moment disreguard the brase pipe that makes the center of the H the post and the wire should look like a big N. So technique and installation are the two main reason for fence failures .
Lastly is incorrect materials. 4x4s, Landscape timbers ARE Not post material. These are the main two down here. Concteteing in a bad post will lead to extra time, man power and surenough $$$$ When it has to be removed. Anyway justa few thoughts here have a good evening.
Later,
John A.

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Sid

11-13-2005 20:03:54




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
Boy o boy I wished that I had gotten in here earlier. All of the replies to your post are WRONG. Now that I have your attention let me explain. I have seen corner post set in concret that have been there for about 20+ years and have shown no indication of giving way. I have seen post set in concrete that did not last ten years. I have seen H braces the gave way when the wire was stretched. I have also seen H braces that have been there 30+ years and are still in great shape. I have seen H braced corners built of pipe and set in concrete give way in less than a year. I have seen X braces... oh well By now I am sure you get the idea. It is my opinion that it is not the problem of the type of brace but of the way it was put in.

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John A.

11-13-2005 12:21:15




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
JB,Don't concrete wood post!!! Again I say don't concrete wood post You are asking for trouble. The wood post will eventually rot to the point where it will get loose in the set. Just use a good tamp bar and hand tamp the post in. It will do b etter and last longer that way. Besides when it has to be replaced you will not have to deal with the concrete.
If you are bent on concrete use steel pipe like 3 or 4in diameter. At least it will be there 40 or 50 yrs minimun. And that should be long enough before it has to be replaced.
X braces on a corner post setup is a major NO, NO. It will do nothing but slack a fence in time. A single H or double H set up with tie wires from the top of the second post to the bottom of the corner post is all that is required. Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.

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Coloken

11-13-2005 10:15:52




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
Oh boy am I goint to start one. A X brace will tend to lift the corner post out of the ground. That is, it gives a verticle lift to the post. I am sure you all have pulled posts by leaning a short post against them and pulling with a chain. A H brace ties the two post into a combination unit that only pulls horizontaly. I am in full agreement on no concret. Besides, a hedge post will last longer than the fence builder.

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DRL

11-13-2005 09:16:38




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
Old is correct. X brace is the only way to go. Notch the corner post at the top and the post beside it at the bottom. Run your brace that direction and run a piece of looped wire the other. Twist the looped wire until the brace is good and tight. Cement is not good, even for hedge posts. They will stay there a little longer, but will eventually rot. Put them in the dirt and they will be there probably long after you are gone. Got to tamp them in real good. Not fill the hole and then tamp them, but every few inches, jab the dirt down hard.

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old

11-13-2005 07:39:29




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 Re: fence posts, hedge, concrete in? in reply to Kansas JB, 11-13-2005 07:33:17  
Yep cement will cause a post to rot faster then in dirt. Another problem is your useing H not X braces. The X is the way to go for bracesing posts not the H.



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