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Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long)

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Errin OH

11-01-2001 22:11:53




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Before eveyone gets excited and thinks, I think, I am some kinda of expert, let me say I'm not by any means. I used the title to save the next guy some search time. I have been searching the past post for several days now and have come to what I beleive are resonable conclusions. 68 mag you will be happy to know that you and I are about to go into the same business/hobby. I will start baling my first 10a next year and am really excited. I did this work as a kid and guess I just long for the good old days. Anyway here's what I found. Many will disagree, some will agree, but here it goes..

What you will need to do it yourself. Any of these steps can be hired out.

Some ground - If you have some great, if not you can rent.

A tractor - the only thing a early ford does not have, that it will need, is a remote hyd port. I believe a single acting cylinder will do what you need (lift the impliment). But two/way would give you better control.

Planter/Drill - Since most hay fields will last 3 or more years, let's look at buying vs. renting a drill. Buy - 300 and up. Rent - Our local county will rent one for 7.00 an acers. I will be renting. Can't justify 300-500 to use it once every 4 years. Just doing 10 acers, it would take 20 years to pay for itself. If you where doing a hunderd, well thats a different story.

Mowing - Three options came up. Brush hog, Sickle, Haybine. With a brush hog, a rotory mower, not a fale, (fail?) mower, the side is removed to eject the cut hay out the side. Set it up with the front down and rear up. This helps keep the hay from geting choped up. Sickle mower is just that, it cuts it and lays it down where cut (no choping). The haybine, cuts, plus crimps in one shot. Pro's & Con's - With either brush hog or sickle option, you may need/want a conditioner. This crimps the hay so it will dry faster (about a day faster). The down side to this is you have to run the feild twice. With the haybine, the down side is the tractor. Using these smaller tractors (30hp) You do not have a lot of power to spare. So things like hills and thick hay can be a problem. Not to mention, the lack of a live pto can be a real issue. Something in the NH467 range seemed to be the perfered size.

Rake - Puts the hay in windrows. Pretty simple concept but watch the width. Using a small tractor without live pto, you will not want very heavy rows. Somewhere here, I read that you didn't want you rake any wider than your mower. Didn't understand exactly why, but if using a 7' mower and a 7' rake, I would think you wouldn't run into the heavy windrow problem you want to avoid.

Baler - there were alot of different opinions on balers. But I think I kinda sorted it out. With the low power of the tractor you may want to look at a self powered baler. This lets the tractor do the pulling and the motor on the baler do the work of baling. A pto driven one will work, but the lack of a live pto, will require a quick learning curve.
Pro & Cons - Motor driven will be running all the time and can only be shut down when you are not on the tractor. Since the baler will be rocking back and forth, and you are not there to stand on the brakes, well be careful, better yet have some help close by to shut it off for ya. Here again with a pto drive, the tractor is the down side. It will be all she can do to pull & run the baler. Hills and heavy windrows may shut you down. Or worse yet push you all the way down a hill. Perfered size - JD14T, 24T, NH68. Mixed opinions on the NH66 & 67 but they would work as well.

Stacking/Hualing - Here again options.
Sell it where it lays or go back and pick up the hay after baling.
Sell it where it lays sounds great, but in practice it probably won't work. Unless you find a farmer to buy it all, you will be waiting for eveyone to come get it and that buddy of yours will be the last one to show up if he ever does.
You can use wagon(s) and/or a truck to pick it up after you have done the baling. I wouldn't even try running a pto baler and wagon at the same time. There just won't be enough power. Some say they have done it but they also admit to rebuilding there tractors every 10 years. If using a motor driven, wagons can be used, but stay away from any and all hills. With the baler at 2000lbs and 2000lbs on a wagon, that 2500lb tractor will not stop it on the down hill side. Motor drive baler, wagon on flat ground should be ok.

Store/Sell
If you indend to keep it look at how much you will have. Approx. 1 ton per acer per cut. Running 50lb bales (good size for small tractors) That will come to 40 bales per acer (x # of acers). You will need a place to store it. Preferbly a dry place. I have a 20x32 barn and figure it will hold +/-1100 bales . Doing 10 acers I should get 1500-1600 bales in a season and will sell what I can't store. Selling in bulk is a good way to help defray the cost. If you have the means. There are a lot of places that run monthly sales and all you have to do is show up.

Here's my wish list for those intrested. Some I have, some I need.

53 NAA (have)
Baler - JD 14T or NH68 (twine)
Haybine - NH467
Rake - Any
2 Wagons (have 1)
5 ton flat bed (almost)

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kb

11-06-2001 19:33:29




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 Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Errin OH, 11-01-2001 22:11:53  
I married into a farm family and one of the first activities I got corralled into was baling hay. We put up as many as 30 acres in a first mowing, and didn't need some of the equipment you have mentioned.

This may sound kinda silly, but some of the stuff you are planning on isn't needed, nor practical with just ten acres of hay. You can put the hay up in two or three smaller cuttings, and greatly diminish the work intensity and expenses.

The cheapest way to cut that small amount of hay is to use a sickle bar mower. Sickle bar machines are fairly cheap. New guards and cutters will give a pretty clean cut. These mowers can be found for as little as $50 and up to $500, depending on condition.

Raking requires no PTO at all. You can pick up a pretty decent pull type rake in need of some replacement teeth for about $500. The easiest job on any tractor is to rake hay. If an AC B will rake hay on hilly ground anything will. Windrows aren't dependent on mower size, at least not with a sickle bar mower. Windrows are determined by how heavy the hay is, and not the size of tractor you are using to rake the hay. If the hay is thin, then you can double rake to make enough hay in the windrow to keep your bales from getting too loose. Loose bales can be caused by not feeding enough hay into the baler, while covering a lot of ground. At the same time extra heavy hay could result in raking less than the full width of your rake. A baler that is trying to get through extra heavy windrows could become choked with hay and sheer pins, or produce much heavier than wanted bales. Fairly consistent windrows, consistent ground speed and consistent PTO rpms makes for consistent sized bales.

A mower/conditioner is handy, but I know of a heck of a lot of farmers that put up a lot more than ten acres of hay at a time without the use of a conditioner. This is a luxury item that is not needed for such a small plot.

With the advent of round balers there are a lot of good older square balers to be had, and these balers need homes. I've seen some really good NH and JD balers go for between $500 and $2500.

The very last thing I would attempt is baling hay with a 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA, etc. They just aren't made for that kind of work, and their PTO is not designed for that work. Baling hay virtually necessitates independent PTO. You need to get your baler's RPMs up to speed before beginning to bale, and not while you are trying to bale. Going from 0 RPMs to operating speed in the middle of a windrow is a prescription for replacing a heck of a lot of sheer pins. In baling a field there are a number of times when one must slow down the ground speed when you come upon a thicker patch of hay, or heavier windrow. With the tractors you mentioned the problem is that the moment you shove that clutch in to stop forward motion of the tractor the PTO slows down. We bale with a 4000 Ford, a lot of farmers in the area use 3000 Fords, and even some use 2000 Fords.

In general we mow the hay, two days later the hay is raked and baled. If it gets wet it may be raked twice to turn it over and allow it to dry. A tedder can fluff up the hay and allow it to dry quicker.

We have never used a drill to sow hay, and have sown a lot of it over the years. We use a PTO powered spreader that you use for fertilizer. A very light dragging will cover the seed, or if rain is quickly coming it will cover the seed for you. You can use the same spreader to fertilize and lime your hayfields. A new spreader is fairly inexpensive, and considering you will use it 2-3 times a year on that field is a pretty good investment.

One strategy that we have implemented the last three years or so is to have someone come in and mow, rake and bale the hay for half of the crop. This includes putting it in the barn if it is square baled.

At one point we mowed and raked the hay, and hired it baled. The rate at that time was 25 cents a bale, it was 50 cents the last time I heard a price. A far more recent price was $5 to bale larger round bales. This sounds expensive, but the savings from labor paid for the baling. Farmworkers don't work for free, unless they are family.

If you do go with a standard square baled one investment that would pay for itself is a hay conveyor. We got one fifteen years ago for $200, it runs off a standard 120V circuit. The end is set on the back of the wagon and one person can keep 5 busy stacking hay in the loft. More than one wagon is likely not necessary. With your 40 bales an acre figure you can stack 2 1/2 acres at a time on the wagon. Four loads and the crop is in.

The NAA would work well enough for planting the hay crop, mowing with a sickle bar (this is afterall what they were designed to mow with), raking and hauling it to the barn. You could probably purchase a larger, older tractor to bale with by not purchasing the mower conditioner.

One nice option that comes with the second tractor is the ability to rake and bale at the same time. This maximizes drying time. You can also begin hauling hay to the barn before baling is complete.

Looking at what you have it appears that for around $3,000 you could pick up the sickle bar mower, baler and rake. Some of the bigger, older tractors can be had for that same price. One deal to keep your eyes open for is buying all the equipment at one time from a retiring farmer, or estate sale. Sometimes you can get a pretty sweet deal from some of these guys that have some older, well-cared for equipment.

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ROTFL

07-27-2002 22:40:21




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 Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to kb, 11-06-2001 19:33:29  
Sounds like all of you are from hicksville- what a production for a few acres of hay. Four decades behind the times!



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Brent

11-08-2001 10:53:22




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 Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to kb, 11-06-2001 19:33:29  
Not that any more advice is needed but this is how I do it (on 20 acres, plus custom work) in Iowa. I started with a Farmall H ($750),a JD 14 ft drill ($200), JD #37 trailing sickle mower with 9' bar ($400), NH 55 side delivery rake ($450), and a JD 214T baler ($1200). I added a Farmall 560 with live PTO this year ($4000 with loader and a big NH 519 manure spreader). I mow and rake with the H (more manuverable than the Wide front 560), and bale with the 560 (live PTO, and a TA for changing ground speed on the fly is wonderful). For small patches I bale with the H since I don't have to bring two outfits to the field that way. If the hay is raked into light windrows (I usually double them when baling with the 560) I can cruise along, but with heavier ones you have to be ready to throw the clutch. I would never use a non-PTO powered baler, that's just another engine to maintain, and a fire risk in dry hay if chaff, etc.. builds up. I plant pure alfalfa with the drill, and drag a harrow behind it. Field prep is usually a disk pass pulling a harrow behind. I usually drop hay in the field unless I can talk my kids into riding a rack behind the baler. Just watch the hills as everyone has mentioned!

Everyone seems to have failed to note that a sprayer comes in handy for knocking down weeds in the hay. I use Pursuit on pure alfalafa stands, kills almost everything else. Butyrac ( commonly know as 2,4 DB the B is important, not just 2,4 D)is also useful if you just want to take broadleaves out of a clover/alfalfa crop. Poast Plus works well on grassy weeds in clovers/alfafa. The sprayer in also great for insecticide if you have potato/alfalfa leafhoppers in your field.

Just my three cents..... .I love making hay!

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Doug

11-02-2001 18:18:02




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 Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Errin OH, 11-01-2001 22:11:53  
Great topic here! My experience over the last year is as follows. Bought JD 24 twine baler $500.00, Hesston PT 10 haybine $1000.00, International hay rake $150.00 (side delivery). I'm in the hay business for less than $2000.00. Put up a little over 500 bales is all this year which would have cost around here $1250.00. Spread horse manure on field as needed and field looks great. I could have included the cost of the tractor but I use it for a lot of other stuff as well. I love baling hay. Nine acres total and I put it all up myself with a pickup truck to haul. To all us beginners; its the best exercise and therapy you can get.

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Tim(nj)

11-02-2001 21:15:03




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 Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Doug, 11-02-2001 18:18:02  
Watch that horse manure if it has wood shavings mixed in. Shavings applied to a grass field year after year decreases the pH to the point where the grass with turn yellow and die (I've seen it done). Alternate where you're spreading if you can, or lime on a regular basis.



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lc

11-05-2001 20:40:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Tim(nj), 11-02-2001 21:15:03  
I'd have to agree there. I've heard it a couple times and the barn(not stables, definite difference$$) I've got my horses at has been dumping the shavings for about 7-8 years now. The pastures are all a wreck. It'll take a buch of work to bring them back I;m afraid.



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Dave_D

11-02-2001 14:22:33




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 Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Errin OH, 11-01-2001 22:11:53  
I am setting up (equipment wise) to do the same thing on my small piece of the world. Here in Texas costal bermuda is popular. They say you plant sprigs for a bermuda hayfield. May question is how do you plant sprigs? Or do you pay to have it done. What type of equipment do I need to rent of buy?

Thanks



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Burrhead

11-02-2001 15:01:05




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 Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Dave_D, 11-02-2001 14:22:33  
There is a planter that you can use for sprigs, but around here most folks scatter the sprigs then run over them with a disc to set the sprigs in. Then run a roller over the planted sprigs to firm the soil around them and they do fine.



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Jim Ct

11-02-2001 08:33:17




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 Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Errin OH, 11-01-2001 22:11:53  
Excellent you covered the equipment issue perfectly.Only note is he has a 8N so a rotary rake/tedder maybe a little big(old school I have a tedder that just tedds).Also even if he cann't get some direct guidence when hes working a friend or two and the MANUALS FOR EACH PIECE OF EQUIPMENT will help.Especialy with notter problems.FInal thought my 14T likes the hay dry so if you go out and have problems let it sit more.

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Sam

11-02-2001 05:35:23




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 Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Errin OH, 11-01-2001 22:11:53  
Errin

Nice write up, you have done alot of homework. The only thing I would recommend will be a hay tedder. I used a rake, until some of the boys talked me into trying a tedder. Well I now can take two 7ft wind rows and rollthem together. This tedder has saved me half a days work. Plus in the spring the tedding option can really help out by spreading the damp hay out for better drying.
Best of luck and enjoy.

Sam (MO)

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68 Mag

11-02-2001 15:03:36




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 Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Sam, 11-02-2001 05:35:23  
Wow, thanks man. I've pretty well figured out everything except a baler. I dont want to overload my tractor, but I cant buy a bigger one. I have a couple of neighbors that farm hay, so I'll probably have one of them bale it for me the first year or two, and pay them or give them a cut of the hay. The only thing is, they use round balers. I guess I may be able to sell round bales...Probably not. Any way, I'll probably just have the hay baled the first year. The grain drill throws me though. Cant I just use a spreader to plant the hay? Also, once it has been planted and growing, will it hurt it to drive the 8N over it to spread manure or fertilizer? Also, since we have no livestock, where can a load of manure be purchased, (yeah, I'm sure selling horse crap is a popular job), and what would an 8N sized manure spreader cost?

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Joe

11-02-2001 16:50:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to 68 Mag, 11-02-2001 15:03:36  
What are you planning to plant. Bermuda, Sudan, High Gear, alfalfa..... ? You can seed many types of grasses with the spreader. I do it all the time with mine and have good success. As far as most hays go I'm not sure if you can just spread them. I've never tried it. I've always sown mine with a drill as the seed needs to be under the surface with a good seed bed. If you were to take your spreader and pull some sort of drag behind it (like a harrow) it might be better than nothing at all(???). You can drive over it no problem after its planted to spread fertilizer. You'll only be doing that for the immediate month or so after its planted and it won't hurt. Be careful not to make paths in your field if you should happen to go over it more than once. Use different rows so you don't compact the same ground over and over. As far as manure are there any sale barns, feed lots, or good sized dairies around that would be willing to part with any?

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Tim(nj)

11-02-2001 21:10:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Joe, 11-02-2001 16:50:41  
Chicken manure works best for hay ground, I've found. Manure spreader prices vary from area to area. 75-90 bushels is a good size for an 8-N, so at least you know what to start looking for. I've seeded alfalfa-timothy mix with a broadcaster. The field was plowed, disked, and harrowed (spring tooth with spike drug along behind) smooth, then rolled with a cultipacker. Then I spread the seed and rolled it again with the cultipacker. This pushes the seed just under the surface of the soil.

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kb

11-06-2001 19:47:48




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Baling hay with 2n, 9n, 8n, NAA (really, really long) in reply to Tim(nj), 11-02-2001 21:10:59  
We use a similar process, only we use a light drag instead of the cultipacker. The broadcast spreaders do a good job evenly dispersing a lot of seed over a large area in a relatively short time.

The drag we use for this is generally a homemade wooden drag, but a chain drag will work well also. Hay seed doesn't need to be covered very deep.



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