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Fence Posts

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jeff F.

10-28-2002 20:26:34




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I have a wood lot full of oak and poplar. No locust at all. I have a lot of fence to put up and a small budget. Is there any way to use this stand of oak for this purpose? I understand that they will not last if you just knock the bark off and plant them. It was logged off 5 to 10 years ago so selling the oak and buying treated posts are out. I know this is not an implement question but I have alot of faith in the accumulated experience of this group.

thanks in advance,
Jeff

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owen in teXas

10-31-2002 21:17:35




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
I have enjoyed reading the many stories and different ideas (opinions) and experiences.
I would like to add mine to the pile.
I know that seasoned mesquite will last many, many years. Seasoned mesquite is gray in color and no sign of bark, it very hard and a tight grained wood and extremely hard on chainsaws. My second choice is (again) seasoned cedar.There are many 'cedar hackers' around here that do nothing but live in the hills cutting and selling posts.
The post yard owners stand these upright and 'peel' the bark off when the natural shedding starts to take place and this is usually about one year, this standing also allows the sap to run thus allowing the grain to tighten. There is an old home place near mine that has posts near 100 years old (I'm told). Now , for me and my limited time I use pipe corners and 'H'braces with T posts and cedar staves. This is a good and popular combination around here.
"No fencing is fun"
Owen

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E Bolch

10-30-2002 14:34:18




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Obviously you guys have never worked with mesquite, in west texas under dry conditions, mesquite and cedar are the post that will last 20 yrs. And trying to cut old mesquite post will cause sparks to fly from a chain saw.



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E Bolch

10-30-2002 14:33:39




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Obviously you guys have never worked with mesquite, in west texas under dry conditions, mesquite and cedar are the post that will last 20 yrs. And trying to cut old mesquite post will cause sparks to fly from a chain saw.



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Hal/WA

10-30-2002 00:19:17




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
You might try soaking for long periods in used crankcase oil. Soak both ends by putting them in barrels and then turning the posts over. Some of the cedar posts I put in 40 years ago treated that way are still holding up barb wire, if not looking good. I have no experience with oak, as it does not grow wild here, but there are lots of railroad ties made from treated oak that are 100 years old and still are wonderful fence posts.

Used crankcase oil is usually about free. The posts get pretty messy--it is almost impossible to handle them without getting filty. But it is a low or no cost way to get some fence posts from trees you have that might last longer than if you just put them in the ground untreated.

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paul

10-30-2002 16:12:37




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to Hal/WA, 10-30-2002 00:19:17  
Some people get really uppity about the envioronmental problems with using used motor oil. Laws becoming what they are, this could possibly be a problem down the road. Just a thought.

Really, the oil does not do much. Adds a couple years. I suppose that is something for the free product, but don't expect motor oil to make a post last 40 years. You were using cedar, they last that long on their own. Soaking just doesn't go in very deep. You need the penetration of pressure treating. Dad has done it too, sure it helps, but it doesn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :)

--->Paul

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Hal/WA

11-02-2002 00:06:23




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 Re: Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to paul, 10-30-2002 16:12:37  
I disagree. We soaked the posts for several months standing up in barrels with the oil level in the barrel right up to the rim. Then we would turn them over and soak a like time. The oil soaked completely through the posts and made them very heavy. And messy. But it did improve their longevity.

We tried plain cedar posts and also tried cedar posts with just one end soaked. With the untreated posts, both ends would be in poor shape in 5 to 10 years. The half treated posts did better in the ground, but the tops rotted and were attacked by woodpeckers. Many of the fully treated cedar posts are still marginally useful 40 years later. And if you remove them from a fence and throw them on a brushpile fire, they burn fiercely. There is still oil in there.

Things have got kind of wacky with the enviroNAZIS. And I suppose they could make trouble for someone that was not careful how he treated his posts and made a big mess. But I believe that if a person minded his own business, didn't crow a lot about what he was doing and was careful about spillage, I doubt there would be any problem at all. The objective was making some posts that would last awhile from local materials and not spending a lot.

I use pressure treated lumber sparingly and only in construction I hope will last longer than a lifetime. It is very expensive and I am concerned about the heavy metals and out and out poison such lumber has in it. I think the possible long term environmental damage from a piece of pressure treated lumber is a whole lot more than the possible damage from a like piece of wood that is oil soaked if they both burn.

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tim[in]

10-29-2002 23:47:57




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
also after reading the other post what some are saying is right. i would let the oak and poplar grow a few more years and have someone come in with a bandsaw and cut it up and naturally dry it down and sell it as dimension lumber. there is even a tape out in farm show magazine where the guy made his own bandsaw for about $400.oo poplar is a good strong wood when kept dry . use if for barn floor. ours had 2 layers of one inch boards for the floor. supported my ac#72 allcrop combine and other equipment and hay too. use the oak to make small portable buildings. the use if dried for the runners too! as for the metal T posts. i would forget them. the quality of what i have seen of the newer ones are not even close to what they used to be. use them if you must but they will not last like the older ones reguardless of brand.but this newer kiln dried wood even with the preservatives just doesnt seem to last as long.i doubt you can even buy creosote anymore ecept maybe for commercil use if that. i think epa did away with it. what you might do if you find a preservative that you think will work is soak the post tops and bottoms and especiall paint some of it at ground level. most phone companies have gone back and put tar paper around the telephone poles at the ground level. hope it works out great for you!=)

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tim[in]

10-29-2002 23:31:01




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
jeff it depends where in the country you are. maybe a neighbor will let you cut some out of his woods. almost every area has some kind of rot resistant wood. i have even heard mulberry might be good. catalpa is supposed to last as long as locust and you can still drive a steeple in 40 years later in it whereas the locust will be hard as a rock.you might see if you can get some old telephone poles and split them or old railroad ties. this is assuming you are building a high tensile or a woven wire fence. for electric you dont need posts nearly as heavy or long lasting. with electric you can even use pvc pice. or rebar. but check around locally. especially auctions and such.my grandfather put in cedar posts when he was alive and they are still standing almost 40 years later where this expensive treated stuff has already rotted away. also remember there are more than one type of locust trees.i believe black locust will outlast honey locust but dont quote me on that. good luck

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Okla/KansBill

10-29-2002 18:02:15




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  

I hate to say it, but if your trees arent around 12in. up in dia, Id do like what was suggested and ccut them for firewood and buy T posts with the money. Its going to be a long bad winter, and you should not have any trouble selling the wood, just takes time. NOW, if they are 12in or over, go ahead and make your posts. Cut them , split them and stand them against a tree. Long about Feb after a HARD freeze, peel them in a dry sign, theyll peal easy as pie.Im from up between St. Joe Mo and Atchison Kan. We had locust everywhere and cut them for posts and never pealed them. They would last for 25 yrs. Whats funny, after that time and it was found the fence needed replacing, it was also found that it wasnt where they wanted it anyhow, and it was handy to replace it the way they wanted it now rather than have the fence stay in good condition and be where they no longer wanted it. Remember youll change your mind about alot of things before your dead, and if you dont, those comming up behind you will. Another thing. Wen I was 19 I got married. I rented a place nesxt to my dad and grandad. My grandad had a stack of hedge posts that had been there as long as I kn ew anything about them. One day grandad said to take them and use them if I needed them. He said he and my geat grandpa, who I never knew had cut them when he was 15, and he was in his middle sixtys then. I used them, and that was back in 69, and where I put a doz or so between my dads and me are still there and up. That would put them being first cut around WW1 or so. But then like somone else said, if that happened here in Okla I doubt if they would last 50 yrs.regular stakes that you cut and put a point on and drive in the ground last 2/3 yrs where at home they would last 5/10. Good luck

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Punchie

10-29-2002 15:13:27




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
HI

Jeff

Poplar waste of time ,good for siding and roofing or furnature (sp) .

Oak Red ( Black ) , the cell or grain are open , here in western PA about 5 years MAX .

White oak Closed or sealed grains about 10 MAX .

Steel posts ( T'S )last me about 10 years.

Rod posts about 8 years.

Spilt locust about 15-20 average , max?? . I'll say there are about 50 -70 left that My granddad put in , I'm 35 so that been at least 35 years.

Osage Orange is to be as good if not better than locust.

There is a White Barked ( lighter color) Thistle tree ( type of crab apple maybe ) that is to be soso.

I would say to use the trees that are there as posts alive. Plant some locust asap, take about 10 years to make posts and may need 20 years . Remember no bark It holds water , oil soak the bottom and cover the tops . Maybe cover the post yearly with oil etc. , to slow the rotting down. I think spilt posts last longer , no complete grow rings to hold the water. Fence is a lot of work better to do it right .


Good Luck !!
Punchie

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MarkR

10-29-2002 10:59:22




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Something to keep in mind is that creosote is pretty hard to come by now adays too. In several states only the railroad is still allowed to purchase and use it.



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Joe in MO

10-29-2002 10:49:39




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Where I grew up, Central MO, we cut Cedar posts for fence rows, just cut them down, sharpened them, and put them in, we also made some Oak posts, but seasoned them and also soaked them for a long time in creasote, still didn't last as long as the cedar, but my dad still makes and sells both posts, now I'm older and in my own place, near KC, we cut Hedge hard wood, and there are center posts that are 50+ years old, we just cut what we need, dig a hole and put them in, we also put t-posts in between the hedge usually 3 between center posts and of course use cross-braces for corners and gates. use what you got, but I would not put oak in without soaking, my suggestion, cut the oak into firewood, and sell it to buy some good fenceposts.

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Joe in MO

10-29-2002 10:44:37




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Where I grew up, Central MO, we cut Cedar posts for fence rows, just cut them down, sharpened them, and put them in, we also made some Oak posts, but seasoned them and also soaked them for a long time in creasote, still didn't last as long as the cedar, but my dad still makes and sells both posts, now I'm older and in my own place, near KC, we cut Hedge hard wood, and there are center posts that are 50+ years old, we just cut what we need, dig a hole and put them in, we also put t-posts in between the hedge usually 3 between center posts and of course use cross-braces for corners and gates. use what you got, but I would not put oak in without soaking, my suggestion, cut the oak into firewood, and sell it to buy some good fenceposts.

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paul

10-29-2002 09:09:08




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
T post is under $2 at the store, $1 at the farm sales. Few corner & brace posts for $6 each.

Your labor is worth something too, you need to cut them all, plant them all, & watch them all fall over.....

New growth probably won't last as long as the old heartwood used in the 20s & 30s. Is my thinking.

--->Paul



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PatM

10-29-2002 05:58:56




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
My FIL and his grandfather put up fence in the 30's using burr oak. Cut after harvest, split, and then soaked in a barrel of creosote and oil over the winter. Some were rotted off by 1980, lots are still there.

If you can get Bois d'arc (osage orange, hedge apple, or whatever the local name is) use it! Tougher nails, won't rot for a long time, and is strong.



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OldJohn

10-29-2002 05:25:07




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Well, I aint about to say everyone is wrong, BUT I've got white oak posts holding up two strands of barbed and 36" mesh that my grandfather put up in 1938. Yeah, 1938. Cut and split, left one year to season and then dipped in creasote or old oil. Like anything else, if one starts loking bed, replace it. I have used poplar as a temparary post, lucky to get two years out of that. I suppose it depends on what part of the country you are in and how dry the land too. For the naysayers, my ag agent says white oak, once seasoned, will not absorb water. Which may explain why it was used for barrels and barges a long time ago.Good luck and good fencing!

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LarryG

10-29-2002 11:09:59




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to OldJohn, 10-29-2002 05:25:07  
I think it was white oak that they used to build Old Ironsides..... ..... . Red oak won't hold up too well.



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LarryG

10-29-2002 11:09:51




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to OldJohn, 10-29-2002 05:25:07  
I think it was white oak that they used to build Old Ironsides..... ..... . Red oak won't hold up too well.



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LarryG

10-29-2002 11:07:08




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to OldJohn, 10-29-2002 05:25:07  
I think it was white oak that they used to build Old Ironsides..... ..... . Red oak won't hold up too well.



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dab

10-29-2002 06:41:05




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to OldJohn, 10-29-2002 05:25:07  
Very true about location. I saw posts at a feedlot in western Kansas that have been there since the 20's. I've got posts in KY that 20 years tops on creosote. Remember its not water that rots posts but microbes from the soil attacking the wet wood.



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david

10-29-2002 05:09:34




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Oak or poplar will make good fence plank but like the other guys said, forget them for ground contact. Treated pine, eastern red cedar, locust, or "that other stuff (I guess, never heard of it)". Heard osage orange (may be the same stuff) works but never tried it. Treated pine 5" for $6 on 20' centers with 2 steel posts between is what I use.



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MarkB

10-29-2002 03:01:44




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Forget about using oak for posts. White oak might last a year or two, red oak will be rotten about as soon as you set your posts. I hear poplar has no rot resistance, either, and it's weak to boot.

Use your oak for firewood and buy some treated posts.



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Mark K.

10-28-2002 21:12:02




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Sorry about the extra posts. I thought it had stalled.
MK



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Mark K.

10-28-2002 21:10:29




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Bodark works well, last a long time.
The one with horse apples and long thorns.
Mark



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Mark K.

10-28-2002 21:08:31




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Bodark works well, last a long time.
The one with horse apples and long thorns.
Mark



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Mark K.

10-28-2002 21:08:13




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Bodark works well, last a long time.
The one with horse apples and long thorns.
Mark



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Mark K.

10-28-2002 21:07:45




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Bodark works well, last a long time.
The one with horse apples and long thorns.
Mark



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AGEN

10-28-2002 21:46:45




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to Mark K., 10-28-2002 21:07:45  
I've never tried using Bodark as a fence post, but I know those dudes are HARD. They could prove to be a pain when trying to cut into posts, and then nail wire to 'em. Like I said, I've never tried (and they may work well) but they sure are hard.



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Gary in TX

10-28-2002 22:48:55




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 Re: Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to AGEN, 10-28-2002 21:46:45  
BoisD'Ark post(Bodark) have been used for a long long time, we have many in our perimeter fence line. You definatly want too use the short steaples to put your bobwire(barbwire) on. Cutting the posts should not be a problem with a good sharp chainsaw chain. If cutting trees that have been down awhile they will be tougher to cut.
Now for your new fence I would recommend using H braces of treated posts or pipe corners and T Posts. If you have a lot to do, thats alot of post holes to dig!

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Gary in TX

10-28-2002 22:46:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to AGEN, 10-28-2002 21:46:45  
BoisD'Ark post(Bodark) have been used for a long long time, we have many in our perimeter fence line. You definatly want too use the short steaples to put your bobwire(barbwire) on. Cutting the posts should not be a problem with a good sharp chainsaw chain. If cutting trees that have been down awhile they will be tougher to cut.
Now for your new fence I would recommend using H braces of treated posts or pipe corners and T Posts. If you have a lot to do, thats alot of post holes to dig!

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Bentcrank

10-28-2002 21:01:11




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 Re: Fence Posts in reply to jeff F., 10-28-2002 20:26:34  
Ain't no Red Cedars on that place no whares?
Well oak will rot, poplar will rot faster. Yer better off buyin up a passle of 'T' posts from one of the discount farm stores. Most likely the easiest thing you could do right off. My 2 cents worth.



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Jon from Indiana

10-31-2002 08:39:49




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to Bentcrank, 10-28-2002 21:01:11  
Osage orange or hedge post last forever.



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Jon from Indiana

10-31-2002 08:38:58




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 Re: Re: Fence Posts in reply to Bentcrank, 10-28-2002 21:01:11  
Osage orange or hedge post last forever.



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