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How The Heck Does This Work?

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Allan in NE

10-24-2005 02:44:37

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Mornin' Guys,

So, I buy this old tractor with a DuAl loader on it. Someone told me it was a model 300??? Dunno.

Anyway, it appears that the complete loader and all the weight of the lift hangs from these two little Vee'd 1 1/2" strap irons on each side? Is that all that supports the entire weight of the loader and it's load?

Geeeze!

Allan

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fixerupper

10-24-2005 19:14:18

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I'm glad to hear you other guys have had good luck with your Duals. The local welding shop says they're junk because they are welding on them all the time. I just think they don't like Dual's. I did make a grapple claw for mine about 20 years ago. It's a copy of a Westendorf but made smaller to fit my bucket. It's real easy to get on and off. In my opinion a loader isn't a real loader without a grapple. My 2c worth. Have a good one!

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Tim Shaw

10-24-2005 18:58:53

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I think the loader is a 320 from the looks of it. My dad had one on an AC 190 for years and it held up very well. We fed tons of loose hay with it until we started feeding with a hydra-fork mounted on the stack mover. The 325 was the long arm version. They were replaced by the 340/345 in the mid-1970s.

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glr62

10-24-2005 17:16:01

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

Notice how pipes to front end are nearly under front cylinder pins. As load is raised, lower pin cylinder is pushing against rear axle. So now the upright at top where pipe is connected, is transfering load to front of tractor. Thus weight is being carried by the bolt on front end of tractor. When this bolt becomes loose, then bolts at rear axle start working and become loose.

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Jerry/MT

10-24-2005 09:55:30

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I may be reading this picctures wrong but i looks to me like the loader is attached at 3 places; Just above the front axle with a brace, midway back by the Vee'd fitting, and u-bolted to the rear axle housing. The rear axle attachment is not a good way to pick up a verticle load because the verticle load appears to be carried by the u-bolts into the rear axle housing. I think that's what T Bone is saying. Looks to me like someone tried to put some sideload on it and those rear axle bolts weren't tight enough, though
But ya' know Allan, that outfit looks like it has seen some use and other than the rear axle attachment, I don't see any signs of damage (bent brackets, bent hangers) and it certainly isn't all welded up, so it must be adequate for the use it had. Go enjoy it!

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Allan in NE

10-24-2005 10:12:06

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Jerry/MT, 10-24-2005 09:55:30

Hi Jer,

Those front stabilizers just keep the uprights vertical; they don't really carry any of the load.

Yeah I know, I think the rusty ol' loader is probably in better shape than the old tractor. :>)

Allan

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Dennis in Wisconsin

10-24-2005 08:36:06

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

If you want close up pics of mountings I will be glad to take some and send them.

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T_Bone

10-24-2005 08:10:18

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

Hi Allen,

Where the horizontal members attach to the axle housing is a weak design point. Just look at the left side hanger where it has slid out towards the tire by about 1-1/2" when comprarred to the right side mount.

What should have been done is the tubing extend under the axle housing with a "U" bolt on either side of the tubing and nutted at the bottom of the frame tube plate. The mounting plate would also need to be added.

With the design change then horizontal loading would try and lift the rear axle housing where as now it will push/pull on the axle housing.

Of course it could not lift the axle housing as the lifting torque would be distributed from the rear axle housing to the front frame attachment point thru the loader frame making it a rigid frame mount.

T_Bone

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Jay (ND)

10-24-2005 08:19:42

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to T_Bone, 10-24-2005 08:10:18

I think you're over thinking it - there are zillions of them Du'als up here mounted just like this and never have I heard of them giving any problems. And some of these guys can wreck anything.

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T_Bone

10-24-2005 08:34:43

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Jay (ND), 10-24-2005 08:19:42

Hi Jay,

Not really as I'm reading what the original design flaw is telling me and should be telling you. Had a good attachement design been empolyed you wouldn't see the mounting slid towards the left tire sidewall nor see the loosening of the mounting nuts as reported below. The reason the nuts keep coming loose is the mounting plate and/or axle housing is flexing.

Very seldom does a single point mounting bolt work.

T_Bone

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Dennis in Wisconsin

10-24-2005 08:05:58

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I got a 560 with a dual loader on it and love it. The one you have is mounted just like mine. I don*t have any trouble with mine except those flat bar bolts loosen up once in awhile. I changed the bucket rams to smaller ones cause thats all I had at the time. Had 2 or 2.5 inch ram and put 1.25 on. Only thing I don*t like is that the lift is a little slow with those big rams. No extra bracing on mine and I can pick up half a car don*t know if this is good or bad. I use it for snow removal and play in the woods doing fire wood and of course help the neighbors out. I will TRY and send a picture with this and if not I will send seperate. have a good day

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Jay (ND)

10-24-2005 07:04:39

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

Allan, it was me who thought it was a 300 model. I'm not sure, just what it looks like - of course all those du'als look about the same. If it's still there, it's up there with the du'al decal.

And yep, that's all there is too that loader. Despite it's looks, it is a very stout loader and will handle whatever you can give it, unless of course you are going to start ramming stuff with it.

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fixerupper

10-24-2005 05:34:26

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I have a 320 Dual off of a 706 and has been on a 630 JD for 35 years. Yes, I had to do some adapting, but anyway, those straps seem to hold up OK but they let the loader twist some. After I had the loader for about 15 years I put a 1 1/4" by 3" steel strap across the belly of the tractor and bolted it to the bottom of the two uprights, right below the V straps. It's also bolted to the belly of the tractor. That really stiffened it up. The loader has has done a ton of work over the years and is still in pretty good shape except for the bucket. Maybe it's because it is on a smaller tractor than it was made for. The only two drawbacks is it is slow and those cylinder seals get to leaking pretty good, especially the bucket ones after they get scratched a bit. Oh yes, another thing to watch for is the piston nuts come unscrewed from the end of the cylinder rams and the loader will hesitate before it moves until the nut eventually comes off. Then it won't move at all. Loctite will hold them on when you put them back together. One good thing about those cylinders is you will destroy the tractor and loader before the cylinders will bend. Hows' everything in NE.? I have combined wheat in the Ogallala area and I hauled a combine through Scottsbluff once when I80 had a width restriction at Pine Bluff. Real nice people in your area! Jim

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Allan in NE

10-24-2005 06:05:05

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to fixerupper, 10-24-2005 05:34:26

Thanks Jim,

The darned old loader is in pretty good shape considering it's age; is very quick, but has one oil leak at a hose swivel on the grapple cylinder.

First lift in the morning, at about two feet of lift, it hesitates like it is low on oil and from then on, it operates fine. Is this what you are talking about on the nut issue?

Thanks again,

Allan

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730 virgil

10-24-2005 09:19:55

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 06:05:05

allan if those nuts keep working loose how about replacing them with lock nuts

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fixerupper

10-24-2005 06:14:54

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 06:05:05

The quickness probably comes from the PTO pump. It's got to be bigger than the pump on a 2cyl JD. I have run a Westendorf loader on a 630 and it is faster than the Dual but won't lift as much, which might not be bad. The hesitation will happen sporatically at times and sometimes all of the time. A lot of times it will be when you are putting down pressure on it, or if you dump the bucket and then when you go to raise it again there will be a pause. Jim

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Mn Dave

10-24-2005 05:31:31

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

Hi, Joein Mo is right, those brackets are only for just holding it in place. That is the best way to attach a loader to a tractor, on the back axle like the one you are looking at. All the newer tractors have a sub frame and carry the load up front and high and to me that ain't the right way. The old loaders like the one you show carry the load low and keeps the tractor more stable especially with a wide front end.

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Joein Mo

10-24-2005 04:58:36

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I'm not an engineer, but I have worked with some. It looks to me that since most of the weight that you are lifting is transfered thru the cylinders and they connect down by the main frame, that the weight is being transfered mostly to be pushing on the back axel of the tractor. All those straps of iron really have to do is hold some of the weight of the loader itself up and prevent any twisting.

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Joein Mo

10-24-2005 04:54:38

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

I'm not an engineer, but I have worked with some. It looks to me that since most of the weight that you are lifting is transfered thru the cylinders and they connect down by the main frame, that the weight is being transfered mostly to be pushing on the back axel of the tractor. All those straps of iron really have to do is hold the weight of the loader itself up and prevent any twisting.

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Chuck MI

10-24-2005 03:08:59

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Re: How The Heck Does This Work? in reply to Allan in NE, 10-24-2005 02:44:37

Allen

How big is that tubing running from the nose up to the top of the loader frame, where the arms attach? That looks rather 'supportive'.

You know you really are a tractor 'junky', no offence intended towards your purchase;)

Chuck

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