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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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What is honing a block?

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Jimmy

09-16-2003 09:11:58




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Can someone explain what honing a block is? Is that the same as boring? If you hone do you need new pistons and rings? I have a 820 D block that is slightly pitted inside the cylinders....does that get repaired by honing or boring..it is not too bad...
What about these devices that you can get a Sears that expand and have stones on them to polish a block? Would a pitted block cause a tractor to smoke or lose power? How bad can they be?

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indydirtfarmer

09-16-2003 09:55:01




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 Re: What is honing a block? in reply to Jimmy, 09-16-2003 09:11:58  
I'm no automotive engineer, but I'll try to give you the highlights of "honing". A piston must have a very accurate bore to operate correctly. Boring gets it very close. Honing is more or less, the finishing touch. A cylinder wall must have a certain "finish" in order to wear properly. That is what honing is all about. The stones used to hone a cylinder, give what is known as a "cross-hatch" or small grooves, in a spiral pattern. They hold oil to lubricate the piston vs. cylinder wall. They also allow the piston to have contact with less of the cylinder wall, to cause less friction. Honing will take out only a very small amount of metal, from the cylinder wall, to give just the right amount of clearance. You can hone a block, to clean it up, when re-building an engine, ONLY if the block isn't worn beyond servicable limits. If it is worn MORE, it needs to be bored to the next available piston size, and then honed to the correct wall finish. There is usually a small tolorance for piston to wall clearance, that will permit SOME honing, on a used block, with "standard pistons" Honing can be done by hand, if you have a good understanding of what you are doing, but it is one of those things best left to experienced machine shops, to get that perfect cross-hatch, and the correct piston clearance. This is what I've always been taught. Someone that has had more "formal education" in engine mechanics, will most likely be able to explain it better than I. Hope this is of some help. John

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Lee

09-17-2003 23:17:29




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 Re: Re: What is honing a block? in reply to indydirtfarmer, 09-16-2003 09:55:01  
John, in general your description would earn you a passing grade in any college level mechanics course and would be approved by the local machine shop just about anywhere. BUT in the real world it doesn't really work like it does in the books. I've honed VW cylinders that were horribly tapered and out of round and reused the rings just to add injury to insult and came away with a $20 bug overhaul that used no oil and had the power of a new engine. My 'A' is running with the same rings I took out of her as well, and running fine. You won't find the spring loaded hone (OP's sears' device) recommended for use in any book or course on the subject either - but they still out sell any other type of hone just the same. Which further illustrates the difference between book learning and real world economics.

You can hone just about any engine and it will work out fine, unless it already has broken pistons due to piston slap (too much clearance) already. So if the engine isn't already a basket case, honing it would most always be an improvement. The cross-hatch pattern is actually an X and 20 degrees is as good as 80 degrees as far as the angle of the cross goes - I've seen both work as I've done both just to see if there was a difference. The idea mainly is to avoid a 'straight' or totally circular pattern which can chip the edge off of the rings. .002 to .006 clearance is fine for just about any engine and I've seen many with .020 and still running strong.

I'm not suggesting you lower your standards of acceptable machine shop practices or anything like that - if I paid for a $1000 overhaul I would expect no less than the standards you suggest either. But there is a LOT of lee way before we get to that $1000 mark.

A machine shop in general has to guarantee their work and to do so they HAVE to follow the guide lines you quote as far as general servicable tolerances. As such you won't find my side of this issue supported any where but by me, right here, right now. And the OP should EXPECT to hear the same high cost standards espoused at the machine shop, but that still doesn't mean that's the ONLY way to do it. Thanks for setting the high water mark, John, and here is to hoping the OP and you can afford your own advice always, I'm not so lucky.

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SamH

09-16-2003 13:11:21




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 Re: Re: What is honing a block? in reply to indydirtfarmer, 09-16-2003 09:55:01  
John, I don't see how an engineer or anybody else could improve on your explanation.

Jimmy, you should take the block to a machine shop and have it checked out by somebody in the engine rebuild business. They can check the bores for wear and "out of roundness" against factory specs and also give you an opinion about the pits. There is also the ridge at the top of the cylinder where the top ring stops at the end of the stroke. This needs to be cut out "ridge reamed" if you hone only. It is not a problem when boring because the boring operation will cut it out.

Something to keep in mind. Not all shops can handle a bore the size of the bigger 2 cylinder John Deeres. I found one in my area that rebuilds dump truck and semi tractor engines. Best way to learn about boring, honing, etc, is to stick around while the shop does its thing.

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Jack

09-16-2003 09:30:57




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 Re: What is honing a block? in reply to Jimmy, 09-16-2003 09:11:58  
Boring is very different from honing.Lots of times you can hone one and add new rings and be ok.Boring requires the next size up pistons to be added.Honing can be done and just install new rings.Boring with new pistons is like having a new engine but if the cylinders look good and are not too wore then a good hone job will probably do the trick.Just make sure you install new rings if you just hone it.You can buy a hone at a Napa store or borrow one from a friend if they have one.Good luck and hope this helps.

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