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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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How does oil press. indicate engine condition?

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Joey

10-02-2003 14:32:15




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just got a tractor running and a freind and I disagree on what high oil pressure means...he says that since I have high oil pressure, above the "H" mark..that that means my engine is in good shape,...I told him I think it just means the oil pump is good, not necesariy the engine..this is on JD 70Diesel...it does not smoke and HAS good compression...

So to settle this, what DOES high oil pressure mean because I thought the oil pump in these things was just down in the crankcase and pumped oil into the crank bearings...
thanks....

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Dave K (FL)

10-03-2003 14:28:45




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 Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condition? in reply to Joey, 10-02-2003 14:32:15  
As I read the comments it seems most are addressing LOW oil pressure. Henry J does ask what oil pressure means to an engine. But he also states his oil pressure is quite high. Bad gage? Blocked passages somewhere? Just a great pump? However, as I understand it the bypass reliefe valve should be adjustable to lower oil pressure in the system to normal. That is quite true in some of my other tractors but I am not familiar ith Henry J's model.

Dave

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Henry J

10-03-2003 05:56:47




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 Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condition? in reply to Joey, 10-02-2003 14:32:15  
Food for thought?

I agree with most on this but do not agree with the theory that oil pressure can be arbitrarily increased by adjusting or reshimming the relief valve. Take this situation - a JD (lets say a 420) has been worked and taken care of for a good thirty years. However throught time the oil pressure has slowly shown less as when the engine is at normal operating temperature. Now in this particular engine the oil pump happens to be capable of pumping relativewly the same volume as when new. But the increse in bearing clearance has allowed enough space for all the oil that the pump can prouduce and then some to leak by. Consequently the pressure will go down when the bearings leak more than the capacity of the oil pump to produce. In this situation the relief valve stays closed and no oil is bypassed as the pressure in the system never reaches the bypass point.

My theory is that when a motor is in the above condition, tightening or shimming up the relief valve will have no effect on oil presure.

I could see one exception to the above theory. Lets say that through the years the spring in the relief valve has lost some of its tension or a lot of its tension because of say a bad run on the quality of metal in that particular spring. Here, which I feel would be a rare case, the pressure could be increased by instaling a new spring or putting more tension on the old tired one.

If someone disagrees with the above theory, let me know please.

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Clooney

10-03-2003 06:53:09




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 Re: Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condit in reply to Henry J, 10-03-2003 05:56:47  
Henry J, I totally agree with you. That pressure relief valve only changes the pressure point at which the oil is allowed to by-pass back to sump it WILL NOT increase oil pressure on a system that needs [uses] more oil than the pump can provide.
~That’s why I usually don’t recommend adjusting the relief valve if a person has good oil pressure with a cold engine but not enough on a hot engine.
~Most people think there are pressure adjustments that can change the oil pressure but that just isn’t so once the pump output capacity is reached or exceeded.

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John T

10-02-2003 16:44:19




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 Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condition? in reply to Joey, 10-02-2003 14:32:15  
Good Evening Joey, great question. Although one can increse the oil pumps output to allow for bearing wear, the general answer to your question "how does oil pressure indicate engine condition is":

The oil pump pumps oil under pressure through and around the surfaces in which the bearings are in contact with the crankshaft throws among other places. When the engine is new and the bearign clearances are in spec, there's x amount of resistance to that oil flow and a high oil pressure is present HOWEVER, as those clearances increse due to bearign wear, theres less resistance to oil flow and the oil pressure drops off some. Thats why low oil pressure can be a sign of bearing wear, but other things can also cause lower pressure like the pump is less efficient etc etc.

There are pressure adjustments which can tweak the oil pressure, and heavier weight oils or additives can be used etc etc., but bearings eventually wear like all mechanical thigns regardless.

Good Luck n God Bless

John T

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Clooney

10-02-2003 14:53:12




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 Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condition? in reply to Joey, 10-02-2003 14:32:15  
Joey, it basically means you just have high oil pressure. As long as the oil pump can make more oil GPM [flow] than the bearings, oil lines, & governor oiler can pass you could have a worn out engine & still have high oil pressure [especially with a cold or only slightly warm engine].
~The big test is if you retain the high oil pressure after working the tractor hard for an hour or two. If you still have high oil pressure then more than likely you have a healthy engine, OR, a very good oil pump. ~Oil pressure [high or low] can be used as an engine diagnostic aid but by itself can't be used to absolutely tell engine condition. ~Kind of like blood pressure...normal blood pressure doesn't necessarily mean your healthy [but it's a good sign] & high blood pressure doesn't mean you will die [but it's not a desired condition]...

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Duane Larson

10-02-2003 17:28:31




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 Re: Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condit in reply to Clooney , 10-02-2003 14:53:12  
I collect old engine test equipment, and one piece I have is an oil reservoir which can be pressurized after being connected (usually by replacing the oil pressure gauge) to the oiling system. Oil is forced into the oil system, and the idea is to count the drips/second at the main bearings and rod bearings - hence learning something about the quality of the bearings. All kinds of info is given in the manual about drip rates for different bearings. I tried it once on an unstyled A, and at the recommended pressure the oil dripped very fast (some might even call it a stream) - and I thought my bearings were fine! I haven't seen many of the test units, but one old mechanic I spoke with who worked on cars swore by (not at) them.

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Paul from MI

10-02-2003 19:12:41




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 Re: Re: Re: How does oil press. indicate engine co in reply to Duane Larson, 10-02-2003 17:28:31  
I have used a similar set-up made out of an old freon tank when starting a newly overhauled engine for the first time. It was made by an old time automotive machinst friend of mine. Very simple, just pour in a couple of quarts of oil, connect to the gauge port, pressurize the tank with about 30 psi air. When you open the valve at the bottom of the tank the oil flows throughout the entire engine oiling system. When you start the engine you will have oil immediately to all of the bearings, instead of waiting for the oil pump to fill the galleries. It's a lot easier than my other method, which was motoring the engine with spark plugs removed until oil pressure is observed. I think it's pretty important to get oil to every bearing on a newly overhauled engine as quickly as possible to promote long engine life.
Paul

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F-I-T

10-02-2003 18:21:42




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 Re: Re: Re: How does oil press. indicate engine co in reply to Duane Larson, 10-02-2003 17:28:31  
Duane:

That's interesting! Sort of like leak down tester but for the bearing side.

Frank



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F-I-T

10-02-2003 15:09:46




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 Re: Re: How does oil press. indicate engine condit in reply to Clooney , 10-02-2003 14:53:12  
And yet another thing....these oil pumps have an adjustable relief valve, so if you have low oil pressure that has developed over time as wear occurs, you can bump the pressure up by tightening the spring on the relief valve. Those JD pumps will put out quite a bit of flow and allow for maintaining a decent pressure readings even a fairly worn engine.

Frank



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