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Generator question for Clooney or John T.

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4020 AL

08-25-2004 11:12:03




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We have a 46 GM with power block and stroked crank for antique tractor pulling. We run a MSD box and Pertronix Ignitor ignition system. We have a problem starting as it seems to take so much battery power to turn over there's not enough left to fire the MSD box. We are using a starter from a 4440. My racing friends tell me they use a 16 volt battery to overcome this problem. Will a 12 volt generator fully charge a 16 volt battery or can the regulator be set up to due this? We have a old MM U that we have used a 8 volt battery in for 20+ years (6 volt system). I checked the battery and it read 8.65 volts and 10+ volts with tractor running. This with the original 6 volt generator, no regulator, just a cut out. Thanks for your help!

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buickanddeere

08-25-2004 13:19:30




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to 4020 AL, 08-25-2004 11:12:03  
Supply the ignition system with it's own wiring on the + & (-) sides. Using a common connection to the starter will add that connections voltage drop to your ignition system problems. What is the volatge on the battery posts them selves when cranking? What is the voltage at the MSD when cranking? I've seen dual post batteries used with one set of posts feeding the starter/lighting circuit. And the otherpost pair connected only to the ignition and charging circuit. Eliminates starter circuit caused VD.

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4020 AL

08-25-2004 14:00:02




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to buickanddeere, 08-25-2004 13:19:30  
Thanks buickanddeere. Good advice on the cables. We have the MSD hooked to the starter post as that was the closest place to get power. We will try going direct to the battery when we get time for expermenting. Thanks again. You and Clooney and John T. all had good sound advice and believe me it is very much appreciated.



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buickanddeere

08-26-2004 04:47:22




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to 4020 AL, 08-25-2004 14:00:02  
Same goes for the ground side of the system too.



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John T

08-25-2004 12:23:35




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to 4020 AL, 08-25-2004 11:12:03  
Hi Al, Sorry I dont have access to any specs or data on those Delco Generators or Voltage Regulators, but Im pretty sure Clooney does so he will be better able to answer your question. In general till he gets here, however, if you turn a Generator faster and/or increase its Field current (part of Voltage Regulator"s job, raises magnetic field strength) she puts out more, so things like pulley diameter changes and pumping more current through the Field windings increases its output, provided you dont overcurrent and/or overheat the windings. Therefore, with a smaller Generator pulley and the VR set up, she just might work, depending on the Generators specs??? Regardless of what any Gen or VR spec book says, however, as it depends on the battery, Generator condition and other variables, with a smaller pulley you may just have to try her at an increased RPM having the Fideld dead grounded n hooked to the battery with an attached voltmeter n ammeter n see if she raises the voltage????? ????? If so let us know. Also, how are you gonna power up the MSD Ignition?? use a 12 volt solid state regulator for it or a battery cell tap, wonder what its upper voltage limit is, but I doubt a lil over will harm it. You better ask MSD and Pertronix !!

On that cranking, do you have any idea what current the starter is pulling??? If you place a voltmeter on the battery when cranking, just how far down does the voltage drop??? Heres some things which may help.

1) Use oversize battery n starter n ground cables, 00 and even larger or custom fabricated welding cables with the semi truck type high current terminations.

2) Try n run an extra ground cable from the battery right to the starter frame in addition to any existing frame ground.

3) Use the absolute highest CCA or Amp/Hr battery or batteries you can physically fit into the mount or elsewhere on the tractor.

4) Run 10 Gauge wire to the MSD box and coil and any ignition system grounds to reduce voltage drop, even though thats overkill and may only help nominally.

5) Other possibilities may involve the use of a series/paralell switch and two 12 volt batteries to run the starter at 24 volts, that ought to spin her overrrrr rrrrr rrrr.

6) That MSD Control Box triggers n fires your Pertronix Coil multiple discharges for each firing right??? I have no idea or specs as to what its control voltage threshold is, but doubt if a bit under voltage would render it inoperative. However, at lower input voltage to that coil (drug down by starter) perhaps its not drawing enough current to give you as high of energy spark you need at higher compressions. Where is the plug gap and have you tried reducing it????? Such will not require as high a coil voltage to arc jump the gap !!! Try it lee n see what happens?????

Sooooo ooooo if the 16 volt system dont pan out and even before you go that route, I would try: Big Super Heavy rated battery or batteries,,,,, ,,,,,00 Gauge cables,,,,, ,an extra ground cable direct to the starter,,,,, ,,,10 gaUGE WIRES TO ALL IGNITION COMPONENTS N GROUNDS,,,,, ,,,,try the plug gap a tad narrower,,,,, ,,,, or check out a dual 12/24 volt system.

Great question, sorry I have no Delco specs, and it will be fun to hear clooney and others thoughts on your problem, hopefully we can all put our collective heads together n get you going.

Good Luck God Bless n Pease pray for n support our troops.

John T

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4020 AL

08-25-2004 13:51:11




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to John T, 08-25-2004 12:23:35  
Thanks John T. The MSD and Ignitor both will handle up to 18 volts. We have been running plug gap at .030. Hate to reduce much from there. We will probably try a seperate battery for the MSD for now as the pulling season is about over for us. Harvest and wheat sowing coming on fast. We'll try some experments on some of your other suggestions next winter when time permits. Thanks again for your expert advice.

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John T

08-25-2004 14:35:59




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to 4020 AL, 08-25-2004 13:51:11  
Youre welcome Al, I enjoyed the other replies also, maybe 3 heads r better than one??? Let us know.

John T



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Clooney

08-25-2004 11:42:22




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to 4020 AL, 08-25-2004 11:12:03  
4020 AL, yes! ..Most 12 volt generators will produce about 22+ volts at open circuit so assuming a load to bring the open circuit down you should easily be able to get 18 + volts [you will need at least 18 volts output to charge a 16 volt battery]..

There are some side effects though..

You will have to probably overdrive that generator with a smaller belt pulley to get any usable charging from it & that will take even more horsepower than it takes now. Even at it’s best you won’t get very much out of it at 18+ volts..

The regulator can be set up to handle 18 volts system voltage.

If you do want to try to use a generator use the later Deere numbered series generator as it’s output is MUCH higher than yours.. Or better yet try to grab a Delco generator from an early Pontiac [I think were some 30-40 amp generators out there]..

Personally I don’t think you will get enough out of your stock generator to help much. But using a later Deere numbered series or car generator it would work fine..

If I were going to tackle your problem on one of my own tractors I wouldn’t mess with the generator but would instead leave it at 12 [13.8] volts & add a second small motorcycle battery or lawn tractor battery with a double throw relay to momentarily hook it to the MSD box during cranking [there’s your 12 volts for ign during cranking], then use a set of diodes to allow it to charge from the main charging system.. Or possibly do nothing for charging that small battery as a good small battery will probably run that ignition for starting all summer without a recharge.

JDClooney@aol.com

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4020 Al

08-25-2004 13:42:01




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 Re: Generator question for Clooney or John T. in reply to Clooney, 08-25-2004 11:42:22  
Thanks Clooney. We had given some thought to a second battery just for the MSD box. Thats probably the easyest solution to our problem. Thanks again for your expert advice.



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