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Magneticism (stupid question category)

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Johan

06-16-2005 08:27:41




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How can a magnet keep its magneticism for 70 to 80 years in a magneto? Does it get "charged" when it is used? A bar of iron gets magnetized while attached to a magnet. Can a weak magnet get "recharged" when attached to a stronger magnet? Sorry for my ignorance.




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Johan

06-17-2005 10:44:48




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 Re: Magnetism in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
Thank you Duane Larson, John T and others who responded to my question. It is a wonderful world we have and I think that to members of this forum the magnetism is especially important. It is amazing that you take a magneto that has not turned in fifty years, clean it up 3-4 times, each time a little better spark, and in the end it works like new. I still ponder if it is the cleaning or the turning of the magneto rotor that makes the spark stronger.

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Duane Larson

06-16-2005 21:01:33




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
Johan (and others),
A nuclear physicist's explanation of magnetism seems to be requested, so here goes.

Magnetism is a property of bulk material, and is due to the orientation of electrons in materials. Each electron has a magnetic moment and can be viewed as a small magnet. Materials contain huge numbers of electrons, but most materials are not magnetic because the electrons pair up with others that have opposite magnetic moments and cancel the effect (so most materials are “diamagnetic” – no net magnetic effect). Placing a diamagnetic material (eg, wood, plastic, leather) in a magnetic field has no observable effect on the material.

Ferromagnetic materials are materials in which the magnetic moments of the electrons behave cooperatively over short regions of the material (electrons are said to be aligned magnetically). These materials are strongly attracted to a magnetic field because each group of aligned electrons (a “magnetic domain”) aligns itself with the magnetic field. Last time I worried about this, it was still a research topic why this cooperative behavior happens, but experimentally it is observed. Ferromagnetism is normally associated with iron (“ferro”), but there are several other magnetic materials (mostly metals), including some of the rare earth materials, and the metals nickel and cobalt. Ferromagnetic materials are used to make the magnets used in our vintage magnetos.

Some ferromagnet materials retain magnetism better than others (permanent, compared with temporary, magnets), and this is due to the combined magnetic properties of the materials forming the magnet. Soft iron is a good example of a temporary magnet – it acts like a magnet in the presence of a permanent magnet, but looses that property when removed. Development of permanent magnets was a very important part of magneto development. Steel alloys were found which had good “magnetic retentivity”, including iron-chromium and cobalt steels, and these were used until about 1938, when the development of an aluminum-nickel-cobalt alloy of steel (known as AlNiCo steel) was perfected and began to be used in magnetos.

Magnetic retentivity is key to a good magnet. Retentivity is affected by heat (affects action of the electrons and causes many to loose their magnetic coupling), and shock (like dropping a magnet). AlNiCo (and its various versions, AlNiCo-V is common and later magnetos use –VIII, even better) have excellent retentivity. Magnets prior to AlNiCo will profit from an occasional charging, depending on their history, while AlNiCo magnets do regain strength somewhere around 10-15% (my measurements) after charging, so most of us who repair magnetos go ahead and charge the AlNiCo rotor. It takes a strong magnet charger to generate the magnetic field strength, though, so most homemade chargers will not be adequate.

This post is way too long now - if you have further questions, I'll try to answer in another post.

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Duane Larson

06-18-2005 18:12:01




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Duane Larson, 06-16-2005 21:01:33  
My only intent here was to respond to a question in a thread in which my take was called out by name – nothing else. My education and profession provided me with some familiarity with magnetism, hence it seemed reasonable to respond. My reason for including “nuclear physicist” was to get any experts in materials science and solid state science to cut me some slack for my admittedly cursory description. I suspect there are other members of this board who could provide a better description of magnetism.

I’m not particularly qualified to provide information on superconductors and GUT (General Unified Theory of all forces), so I’ll pass on those topics, interesting as they are. Discover Magazine has had some good articles on these in the past couple of years.

I’ll let others decide for themselves on the relationship between my education and any common sense which I may (or may not?) possess. But in my defense, I did grow up on a dairy farm, and survived, so I must have had some at one time… .

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buickanddeere

06-19-2005 00:36:10




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Duane Larson, 06-18-2005 18:12:01  
Duane

In case anyone misunderstood. I was trying to be complimentary. You have been a bit of a mystery. Until this thread I had no idea of your background except for being a JD two cylinder expert.



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buickanddeere

06-17-2005 07:06:52




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Duane Larson, 06-16-2005 21:01:33  
Duane You have been holding out on myself and likely some others. I knew you are several notches smarter and educated than average. How ever I was unaware you have played in the major leagues. How about a brief outline on the theories about gravity, space and time and their relations to each other? Too bad room temperature super conductors do not exist for use in generator rotors etc. Those cryogenic rotors seemed to fly apart too often. The $$$ to cool them with helium adds up too..

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Mike M

06-17-2005 16:56:51




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to buickanddeere, 06-17-2005 07:06:52  
Be very, very careful as I have been witness to many who are very educated have a LOSS OF ALL COMMON SENSE.



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buickanddeere

06-17-2005 21:25:28




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Mike M, 06-17-2005 16:56:51  
I've also met a few that have been educated beyond their intelligence. I never found that to be a problem with Duane however.



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F-I-T

06-18-2005 13:47:47




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to buickanddeere, 06-17-2005 21:25:28  
Personally, I have found that while some very educated people can and do select a different centric of conformity which might seem to most to be different from the social norm, the majority of really, really, stupid people tend to have dropped out of school because they decided to pursue a career armed only with their common sense.

I'd rather run the risk of educating myself and my kids to a point where others think that they might have lost their "common sense" than to let them remain uneducated and virtually guarantee stupidity.

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buickanddeere

06-18-2005 20:18:10




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to F-I-T, 06-18-2005 13:47:47  
Frank

I agree with you entirely. I'm thinking of the highly educated do-gooders of society, govermnet and the media. They either have honourable goals but unrealistic methods and expectations. or they are in it for the power and status.



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buickanddeere

06-18-2005 20:18:10




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to F-I-T, 06-18-2005 13:47:47  
Frank

I agree with you entirely. I'm thinking of the highly educated do-gooders of society, govermnet and the media. They either have honourable goals but unrealistic methods and expectations. or they are in it for the power and status.



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John T

06-16-2005 15:03:47




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
Johan, Magnets can retain their magnetic field strength for a long period of time, cuz on the molecular level (its been a while lol and its a lil technical, Duane can explain it better than me) once all the poles get lined up in the correct direction/orientation, they tend to stay that way, HOWEVER, as time passes they do loose strength as some resort back to their neutral position. How well they retain their orientation n resultant magnetism depends a lot on the magnetic properties of the metal, and I think it was around the mid thirties (Duane will know, he has excellent specs n literature) when they developed Alnico V (or was it VIII) which retains its magnetic field strength over long periods.

YESSSSS S a weak magnet or even no magnet (provided its the correct metal(s)) can be magnetized or strengthened by placing it in an extremely strong magnetic field which is what they do if you have your magneto "recharged". Its a high flux magnetic field produced by electromagnetism amd it causes the molecules to line up and imparts magnetism similar to what happens to the iron field poles in a generator when you polarize it.

Fer sure my buddy Duane a retired physicist can explain it in full detail as needed, its been too dern long for me and properties of materials and magnetism and physics wasnt my best subject years ago.

Great question and certainly NOT a stupid question nor are any legitimate questions. The only stupid questions are ones that go not asked.

Take care n God Bless

John T

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MikeinLouisiana

06-16-2005 11:24:58




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS ONLY DUMB MISTAKES!!!



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Jason Z in MO

06-16-2005 09:17:08




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 Re: Magneticism.. Hello Duane!!!! in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
Now this is a PERFECT question for Duane Larson!



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Bob

06-16-2005 08:59:24




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Johan, 06-16-2005 08:27:41  
Modern rare-earth magnets are very good at keeping a "charge". Older steel magneto magnets commonly needed recharging, which was a common service at repair shops.

Here's a link to plans for a home-made magnet charger:



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Paul from MN

06-17-2005 11:47:05




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 Re: Magneticism (stupid question category) in reply to Bob, 06-16-2005 08:59:24  
Has anyone built one of these? If you did, I am curious to know what your results were, and what your investment was.



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