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Won't start

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Jim Derflinger

11-11-1999 17:03:01




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I have a JD 655 that won't start.Replaced glow plugs, cleaned the injectors, replaced fuel filter
tried starting fluid but no help. In cold weather it started getting hard to start and now at 60-70
degrees it still won't start. It has 400 hours on it and is a 3 cyl diesel. What should the cyl compression be? Any ideas why it won't start???




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gerben steenbergen

11-20-1999 10:49:23




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
We have a jd2020 ourselves, and we once had a problem starting the engine. We just treid cleaning the electric parts of the starter, and it ran quite a lot faster afterwards, so it starts very well since then.
Gerben Steenbergen



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RonMC

11-14-1999 22:53:23




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Jim, I've been following your saga with interest, because I own a 770, with the same eng, etc. It has never failed to start on it's own with the glow plugs in any kind of (Canadian) weather. I work on Hondas in a dealership, and have seen too many things come in on a hook with a simple (to me), problem not to know that there's a limit to one's ability to diagnose and repair things even with all the collective experience we have on this site. Considering the hours on this machine, and the reliability of these engines, I'd call a flat-deck tow, or winch it onto my own or a friend's trailer, and take it to the guys who have seen this before (your dealer's mechanics). Odds are it is something simple, and you can authorize an hour's worth of diagnosis and see what they find. I've been in over my head before, and sometimes the old thinker just doesn't have the info. These old machines are like tinker toys to fix compared to the new stuff. It could be an electronic module or some such unit which you'll never diagnose at home. Time to bite the bullet. If I had a similar problem with the Toyota, I'd be at the dealer's. I enjoy working on the 2-cylinders because things like a 5-wire harness are like a holiday after dealing with injection and electronics all day. Good luck !, RonMC

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Dusty

11-13-1999 07:13:48




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
It's dusted!!!!



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Frank Boerger

11-13-1999 10:52:05




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Dusty, 11-13-1999 07:13:48  
Jim:

If it is low compression caused by premature ring/cylinder wear, you could squirt a tsp. of oil into each cylinder thru the injector port, then replace the injectors, prime by using the little pump, and then try to start it. My guess is if it is wear, the oil will temporarily seal the rings and it will start.

Did you ever notice unburnt fuel in the crankcase oil ?

Frank-In-Tallahassee

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Jim Derflinger

11-13-1999 21:17:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Frank Boerger, 11-13-1999 10:52:05  
Frank, I'll try the oil to see if it will start.
No I've not seen fuel in the oil.
Jim



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Dave Wickman

11-12-1999 08:02:24




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Jim, From all the useful and good suggestions that you have been given and sounds like you have tried, your problem may be more serious. The little Yanmar engine that you have in your 655 is the same as the engine in my 332 lawn tractor. They are a very good engine and I don,t just say that because I own one but because working for dealers over the past many years these engines had very few problems. Although I have had a couple with the symptoms that you discribe, my concern is compression. The reason I say that is if your glow plugs are functioning and the exaust is smoking when attemting to start your problem is not fuel or glow plugs. The white smoke that you probablly have and see is raw unburnt fuel. The lack of heat being built up to fire the injected fuel is caused by low commpression. No the engine should not be worn out but it only takes one dusting fault of the air filtering system in some time in its life and you will get the results that you have. Double check the glow plugs by removing them, grounding the hex body to the engine with a vicegrip pliers, hooking them up to there normal supply wire and turning the key on. Watch them they should light up like a burner on the stove. If all sighns are commpression here is a way to confirm this theory. Remove the air intake hose from the engines intake and attemt to start the engine while blowing hot air from a heat gun or ladies hair dryer into the intake manifold. You may see it start!! If it starts or make an attemt to start the test will tell you that lack of heat is your problem. Good Luck!! Let us all know what you learn. Dave Wickman

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Jim Derflinger

11-12-1999 10:48:34




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Dave Wickman, 11-12-1999 08:02:24  
In the past I used a heat gun to get it started in cold weather but that no longer works, when the temp is 60 degrees it still won't start. I think it is compression related at this time.
Tried to do a compression check with one that is for cars but not the right fittings so looks like it was from 180-200psi. Don't know want the compression is on diesel for JD 655, any guesses?



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Frank Boerger

11-12-1999 12:14:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-12-1999 10:48:34  
Jim, the compression @ 24:1 would be around 325-350 lbs.

If you had a compression problem, it shouldn't have occurred on all three cylinders at the same time....and you said all valves and clearance of .010-.020...I still think it's fuel related.

Frank-In-Tallahassee



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JDGnut-Specs

11-12-1999 12:12:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-12-1999 10:48:34  
The specs for the compression on these little engines is high. The tech manual says 426psi, minimum compression. With that kind of pressure, you'll have to have the correct fittings. It doesn't sound too good. I havn't read the other posting other then Dave's yet but have you checked your valves yet, I dought that this could be a the cause but just a thought. Good luck.
JDGnut



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JDGnut

11-12-1999 12:29:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to JDGnut-Specs, 11-12-1999 12:12:08  
We had a F 935 front mount that drove us nut about not starting and running. We had a problem with the Rack in the pump not going in to the start mode. I'm not real sure what we finally did to get if fixed, but when you start messing with the rack, you have to be very carefull, we had it run-a-way on us a few times once it got started, we just made sure we could pulg off the intake once it started. But the ether think has me puzzled as it seems to everyone else too. How was the power on the machine once you got it running, if you had good power I think you might have a pump problem. I would be sure to have the compression test done, at least emimate that problem. Dave may be able to help you a little more on the pump. I'll have to talk to a friend on Monday about what we did to get the rack fixed on the front mount mower.
JDGnut

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Frank Boerger

11-12-1999 06:00:16




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Jim:

I have an 855 with 2000 hrs on it, and I never have to utilize the glow system above 20 degrees. I just hop on, start cranking, and it takes right off, including times when there has been frost on the hood.

Correctly, you should not use ether and glow plugs. Having said that, if you did give it a snort of ether, and began cranking without pre-heating, it should have rattled to life. Any diesel I have have been around (70 D, 4020) snapped to with ether. I am concerned that the ether had no affect. Did anyone mess with the valve lash/timing ? Have you ever adjusted the valves ? Is the air filter completely clear ? Was the ether really getting to the intake ? How else would the ether have no affect? What was the ambient temp when you tried this last with ether ? Too cold for it to vaporize ? Also, on mine, there is a little trigger primer on the side of the pump (I'll verify this tonight). Use this to prime fuel to the pump. By now you know, but as a reminder, there is a bleed screw on the sediment/primary filter bowl, and one on the pump. The most thorough job of priming would also be to crack the injector nuts until fuel flows (and tighten them while it is turning :) ) But now I've got to tell you, that because of a short fuel pickup hose in the tank, and a teenage girl operator, mine has run out of fuel more times than I would care to admit. Seldom did I prime it, because since it is normally warm in my part of North Florida (winter gets down in the teens at times), we just crank 'er till she fires, and that isn't very long. It has been in my experience the easiest starter of all the dozen or so diesels I have owned, including cars (VW's, Tempo). BTW, is your tank full of fuel, is it clean, and is the hose on the fuel gauge sending unit attached ? There is also a little nylon screen down there that could possibly be clogged...worth a check ?

As was mentioned, checked for any trouble in the pressure lines, or the return lines....you said you had the injectors cleaned, was the breaking pressure checked, or did someone just scrape off deposits from the outside of the nozzles ? Has the pump ever been removed ? Are you getting current to the plugs, and like someone mentioned, watch them glow OUTSIDE of the engine (I once had a VW Rabbit that checked good, but the plugs were just barely glowing as they had mostly eroded away). Or, pull the injectors, and watch the glow through the injector ports. I think there is a glow relay, and that would kill all power to the plugs, better verify it works, too.

Give us more information, and as a group, I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of this. What has the history on this machine been ?

This tractor sounds like it has far too few hours on it to be acting so worn.


Frank-In-Tallahassee
70 D/855

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Jim Derflinger

11-12-1999 07:57:55




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Frank Boerger, 11-12-1999 06:00:16  
The JD 655 was new when I got it. I have been the only one working on it. The valve timing has been touch and valves haven't been adjusted. They seem to have about 15-20 thousands play. I don't have a service manual so don't know what they should be. I've tried without the air filter installed but no help. The temp was 60 degrees when I tried ether right into the intake.I have a bleed screw on the fuel bowl and on the pump, tried both and get fuel out. I also cracked at the nuts at the injectors. How much pressure is in the fuel lines to the injectors? I started haveing trouble last year starting it and just keep getting harder to start. Fuel tank is full. I put new glow plugs in it and read 12v at the plugs for about one minute.
Tried with the plugs out and they get red.
Will check on the nylon screen in the tank.
I replaced the hoses on the return side of the injectors. I took the injectors apart and cleaned them with cleaning fluid, no pressure test.
The fuel pump or injector pump haven't been removed. The glow relay seems to be working ok.
I do get a little smoke from the valve cover hose when starting it.
Jim-In-Indiana

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Frank Boerger

11-12-1999 09:14:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-12-1999 07:57:55  
Jim:

I'm not certain about the trip pressure in the steel lines, but it should be in the neighborhood of 1800 psi. The injection pump is pretty much hydraulic in nature, that's why it can't tolerate bubbles.

My problem is that I can't see that the absence of glow power would keep this thing from starting @ 60 F. I lean toward fuel, but that doesn't explain why ether would not make it fire off.

Now a test I used on old VW's for injector performance was to disconnect one of the steel lines, and swing it around so I could get an injector installed on it, but out of the way. If you crank the engine, you'll be able to watch the injector spray. I have even run a 4 cyl. with one injector out and spraying. DO NOT PUT ANY BODY PART UNDER THE SPRAY, OR SERIOUS COULD AND WILL RESULT. This will allow you to verify that all is right with the fuel delivery. If the spray pattern is intermittent or otherwise abnormal, service this area. At that point I would look for pinched line from tank to filter or filter to pump.

Another trick you could try would be to rig an external fuel tank with a line to the pump (use a small inline filter) and feed the engine with gravity.

I still think it should start without glow assistance at 60 F. When new, did you require glow plugs @ 60 F ?

Frank-In-Tallahassee

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Jim Derflinger

11-12-1999 11:05:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Frank Boerger, 11-12-1999 09:14:03  
Frank:
My glow plugs come on every time I tried to start it for about a min. or so, I have no control over turning them on or off.
I did have all the injectors installed out of the engine but seen no spray from them. Didn't know if they would work without compression from the engine. Will have to tried that again. I had the injector lines off from the pump and only seen a little pump of fuel from each. Sounds like there sould be a lot more pressure from the pump, it only comes out about an inch, is that normal?
Thanks for all the info! Jim

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Frank Boerger

11-12-1999 11:56:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-12-1999 11:05:19  
Well, there wouldn't be much fuel come out on an engine that size.....and yes, if you have the injector on the line, but not installed into the head, you can watch it spray...as far as turning the glow plugs on or off, all I meant was that I didn't pre-heat the plug chamber...that is I went from off to cranking in one fell swoop ..... 'course the plugs are warming up as the tractor is cranking, but basically I would call that an unassisted, cold start. In the old days when it was new, were you able to just crank it and start it @ 60 F ? If so, then something has deteriorated, and I still think it is fuel related, like a pump loosing it's prime between runs, or a poor fuel pick in the tank.

Frank-in-Tallahassee

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RonMC

11-22-1999 23:57:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Frank Boerger, 11-12-1999 11:56:27  
Just for the curious, is this a "turn key left for glow plugs, turn right to start ??



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Jim Derflinger

11-18-1999 20:32:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Frank Boerger, 11-12-1999 11:56:27  
Tried the oil into the injector hole and than tried to start it but no luck.Had the injectors out but installed in the line and seen fuel spray from all three injectors. Seen glow plugs light thru the injector holes. trying to find a compression tester to test the compression next.



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Bob

11-11-1999 22:11:53




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Are you sure your glow plugs are working? Check with a test light to see if there is power going to them. If there is than pull them out and hook them to a battery with a set of jumper cables to see if they get hot. My guess is they are all 3 burned out. you probably have been running on one or two and the last one has finially given up



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DeerePuller

11-12-1999 09:05:28




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Bob, 11-11-1999 22:11:53  
On the JD 4000's there is a fuse that will blow out on the lefthand side inside the counsil. I don't Know if your 2510 has that but our problem was that the tractor would not start or turn over until we put a new fuse or a piece of wire in there.



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Cyrus

11-11-1999 22:02:07




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Paint it red.

It will start on the first try.



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Steve

11-11-1999 19:19:36




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
Glow plugs and ether are NOT a recommended combination. You didn't mention bleeding the fuel system after you cleaned the injectors, may have to try that.



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Mike H

11-11-1999 18:45:51




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 Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 17:03:01  
This tractor is really a yanmar right?Did you happen to have ran it out of fuel? Either way if you get air in these little tractors it can be a BEAR to restart try blowing compressed air in the fuel tank as you crank it. But not to much if you have a plastic tank



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Dan

11-11-1999 20:16:44




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Mike H, 11-11-1999 18:45:51  
Check your return line on the injectors to see if they are clogged or stopped up. It will not allow the injectors to open up so the engine will not get fuel. If you had an injector on a test stand and blocked off the return you would get the injector to pop once at the correct pressure then you will see a rise in lift pressure the next time then the next try it will go off the scale. Check the return going to the fuel tank it could be pinched. Hope this gets you started

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Jim Derflinger

11-11-1999 19:22:19




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 Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Mike H, 11-11-1999 18:45:51  
Yes, it is a Yanmar engine. Will try a little air.
Bled air from the injectors before but no help.



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Jarrod

11-11-1999 19:32:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jim Derflinger, 11-11-1999 19:22:19  
Crack the lines at the injectors, open throttle all the way then crank the engine. If you have little or no fuel, then back track the lines to the pump. look for a bleed screw at the pump. If you can't find anything then check where the supply line enters the pump for fuel. Remember the throttle is at wide open so when it does start be ready. Opening the throttle will make the pump pump at max output thus removing the air much faster than at idle. You may know this already but maybe someone didn't who just read this. Also look for any kind of smoke out the exhaust when your cranking. smoke is a sign of the engine getting fuel. hope this helps and gives you a few ideas. Good luck

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Jim Derflinger

11-11-1999 19:43:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Won't start in reply to Jarrod, 11-11-1999 19:32:04  
Bled the lines at the injectors and had fuel coming out, and also the bleed screw at the pump.
Do have a little smoke at the exhaust.



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