Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
:

Form the tractor war and

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Defend Deere

12-20-2005 14:27:17




Report to Moderator

political board. Tired of politics today. So look:

Back to the hated Deere.....
Here are some average resale figures from a 1978 equipment guide I have.
Gasoline tricycle models:
WD45 = $1366, 60 JD = $1106. WD = $851, A JD = $682. D17 Series I = $2404, 720 JD = $2149, 730 JD = $2219.

Some then current (for 1978) models Diesels:
AC 7000 = $16941, JD 4230 = $12982. AC 7580 = $35431, JD 8430 = $35459. AC 7060 = $22310, JD 4630 = $17819.

I can break it down to same model years because an older tractor like the 1972 4630 is figured against a 7060 that didn't appear until 1974 and so is an unfair comparison.
Model years 1975-77: AC7060 = $22310, JD 4630 = $19610. AC 185 = $11025, JD 2640 = $10387. AC 7080 = $26979, JD 6030 = $24285.

Resale today can be greatly attributed to the fact that AC, IH, MM, Oliver etc no longer exist and JD does. Does not mean JD had better equipment cause resale back in 1978 suggest not. The same holds true for combines.

Also consider that a new Deere was more expensive that a new Gleaner or AC tractor and the resale takes on more significants.

JoelS

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Mike from cny

12-21-2005 21:44:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
The 4020 was cheapest when it was new.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 03:33:04




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Mike from cny, 12-21-2005 21:44:49  
I'll have to look at that. I know a 4010 was priced about the same as a D19. 1964 D19 diesel was $6,080 and the 1963 4010 diesel was $6,167. The diesel D19 only had 67 hp. I think a 190xt was less money than a 4020. The 1972 list price for a 4020 Diesel w/narrow front was $10,345 and the 1972 list price for a 190xt Series III Landhandler Diesel w/wide front was $9,587.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
DP

12-22-2005 08:19:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-22-2005 03:33:04  
Not sure why I'm responding here, because I usally don't, but I will tell ya that my uncles bought a new 4020 Diesel, open station in 1971 for $8350.00, and that was with no trade.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 09:04:57




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to DP, 12-22-2005 08:19:54  
List price is just a base to start dealing with. I read, a long time ago, where Deere sold it's products at prices to profit about 19 or 20% and that Allis sold thiers to profit at an average of 4%. IH was around the Deere figure also and Case was somewhere in the middle. This was 20 plus years ago so numbers could be off some.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 07:22:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-22-2005 03:33:04  
List prices mean very little. Final selling price was determined by the dealer and the buyer.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jonesy

12-21-2005 19:39:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
I would call myself an IH guy but I do have a couple Deeres as well. I think all makes have played an important role in American agriculture. Each making different contributions in technology. I believe Deere has an advantage with higher resale of lets say "older" tractors, pre 1970 due to their vast marketing. They really have become a part of "Americana". Heck just stroll through Tractor supply right now. JD tree ornaments, calenders, candles, toys ect. They are an American icon. If we go by 2005 resale just look @ the 4020 as an example. A 35 year old tractor brings $8000 to $15000.Not to shaby. An IH 806 brings $2500 to $6500. I like both and lets all admit it, they are both great work horses. I think that Deere still being in business helps their resale out as well.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike Aylward

12-21-2005 14:42:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
This isn't something that I normally get involved in but here is my two cents worth. Look around and see the difference in hours on tractors of a certain year. Look around and see how many low hour 7020 AC tractors there are (there are lots of them out there). Many of these tractors have 3000 hours or less. That tells me two things, one being they either were in the shop all the time being fixed or else nobody wanted to run them and they sat while another tractor was run. How many sub-3000 hour 4440's do you know of? If you do, let us know as they will be sold by dark. You will find 4440's with well over twice that many hours because they would run and run and run and not beat you to death doing it. Just my humble opinion. Mike

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 03:38:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Mike Aylward, 12-21-2005 14:42:49  
I can find many low hour 4440s as well. If you find a low hour cheap 7020 or better yet 8000 series let me know. Around here they sell fast. Marzolf's in Spring Valley MN can't keep them and they have to go down south to buy them and sell up here. That's the truth. But they are a good dealer.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-21-2005 13:29:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
You might want to stop and think about what the introduction of the "Iron Horse" Deere 40-series tractors did to the value of the 30-series Deeres, as they are head-and-shoulders better in every category, and were hugely popular right from the start. I'd also bet a dollar that Deere built 30-series tractors in numbers that would flat embarass A-C's 7000-series numbers, which would result in a larger supply. So if a lot of 30-series tractors went in on trade for 40-series, there would obviously be a coinciding drop in value, would there not? Regardless of how numbers from '78 shake out, anyone that would rather sit in an A-C 7000 all day than a Deere 30-series should have their head examined anyway.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-23-2005 04:09:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-21-2005 13:29:40  
I've never heard them called an Iron Horse. Anyway your arguemnet does not hold water no matter what name you might give your tractor.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 07:21:53




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-21-2005 13:29:40  
I've spent a few days in the cab of one of those fine "black-belly" 7000s. Not an experience I care to repeat, but I was helping a friend put up silage. A-C DID put pretty quiet cabs on those tractors, even a little bit quieter than a 30-series Sound-Gard, as a matter of fact. But the method they used to quiet it down was to reduce the interior volume of the cab to a bare minum, in order to reduce the "drum" effect and subsequent noise. Being close to 6'4" and north of 275 lbs, I wouldn't give 10 cents for an A-C cab. The steps and doors are a joke, for starters, before you even get to the seat. Deere used quality materials, good engineering, plenty of insulation and their decades of research into operator comfort (began when Henry Dreyfuss was brought on board to style the letter series tractors - "A", "B", etc.) to produce a quiet cab with excellent controls, a good HVAC system and the list goes on. The Deere Sound-Gard was good enough and like enough by owners and operators to remain in production til the 90s. How about the A-C cab? Don't make the mistake of thinking that any Deere discussion board regular hasn't spent hour one in Brand X tractors. I grew up on Binders, am currently a Deere tech, worked for a NH dealership on Ford/Versatile/New Hollands and have worked on pretty much every brand along the way to some extent, in addition to spending a fair amount of time in the field. I'm not so sure you want a lot of us over at the tractor wars board.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 09:13:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-22-2005 07:21:53  
My motto is the bigger they come the harder they fall. Man or beast, ideas and companies. Seriously, you have always talked like you been there and done that for years. I have seen your posts before. How old are you. I'll guess thirty at best but I've guesses wrong before. Anyway I've driven a number of tractors also and can pick bad points of each and good points. My point is Allis ain't as bad as you make out and resale value back in thier hay days prove it to me. Merry Christmas to you.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 13:16:54




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-22-2005 09:13:56  
I don't see what my age has to do with it, but I'm 31. Graduated high school at 17 after spending half my life living at a feedlot and ranch in western Nebraska, and all my life spending every spare moment in the summer at my grandparents' diversified farm operation in southeast Nebraska. Started at SCC in Milford, NE in September of '92 and got out in June of '94 with two Associate Degrees - one in Diesel Truck and one in Diesel Construction Equipment. 6 out of 8 quarters I was on the Dean's List. Did about 3 years wrenching on heavy equipment at a Caterpillar dealership that I starte for part-time before graduating tech school, around a year at the first JD dealership I worked for, about 3 years on Ford/Versatile/New Holland iron, and have been at this Deere dealership for 5+ years, pretty much specializing in row-crop tractors over 150-hp, but I've worked on everything from "A"s to 8520s. Probably been to a 15 or so service schools for the brands listed above over the years for more advanced training. Nearly every weekend I make a 250-mile round-trip to go down home and help on the farm I mentioned previously. So now you don't have to speculate about what I may or may not have done. Merry Christmas.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-23-2005 04:25:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-22-2005 13:16:54  
Sounds as though you put some time and money into your career. Good for you. My old man used to gripe about educated idiots (not that you are one). He said these guys that think they know everything about the subject at hand often do know alot of technical terms but know alot less on real life experiences. That's why I might be a little sceptical about your vew. I've also seen alot of big ideas from these ag universities that caused many farmers, who took their advice, to go broke. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-23-2005 07:15:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-23-2005 04:25:21  
Your skepticism doensn't bother me in the slightest, as you don't know me and I don't expect a stranger to believe every word I say without question. But I have "been there and done that" quite a bit, and have spent many, many hours rolling around in the dirt in a corn field, construction site, etc. fixing machines with nothing but what I brought in the truck. Yes, there are "educated idiots" in the ag service field, but most don't last long, because in the end you have to be able to fix whatever problem your technical ability leads you to find. But at the same time, the duct tape and baling wire days are long past. If you don't know your way around a computer and are good with electronics, you don't have much of a chance in this field unless you like replacing bearings and belts on combines. It's still far from "all glory", even when working on the new stuff, though. At the moment, I'm pretty well soaked from washing a 4560 that I inspected, serviced and repaired as part of our winter inspection program. You never get away from the dirty work. And if you can't read a service manual and comprehend it, you may as well give up, because the product line is getting so big and diverse that there is simply no way for a technician to stay "current" on everything.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 03:55:13




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-21-2005 13:29:40  
You could say the same about the Black Belly series Allis that came out in 1977. The maroon ones had to drop in value just on looks alone let alone improvements. Maroon bellied ACs weren't pretty. Black bellies were much beefier and had an even quieter cab. BTW Allis had the quietest cabs during the 1970's. A mechanic friend of mine, who loves IH and Case, admitted to me after having helped is daughter's husband in the field that he liked driving thier 7060PS better because of the way it handled. I don't dought that Deere had a good tractor. I just think you are blowing when you say that Allis is as bad as you say.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 07:23:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-22-2005 03:55:13  
I've spent a few days in the cab of one of those fine "black-belly" 7000s. Not an experience I care to repeat, but I was helping a friend put up silage. A-C DID put pretty quiet cabs on those tractors, even a little bit quieter than a 30-series Sound-Gard, as a matter of fact. But the method they used to quiet it down was to reduce the interior volume of the cab to a bare minum, in order to reduce the "drum" effect and subsequent noise. Being close to 6'4" and north of 275 lbs, I wouldn't give 10 cents for an A-C cab. The steps and doors are a joke, for starters, before you even get to the seat. Deere used quality materials, good engineering, plenty of insulation and their decades of research into operator comfort (began when Henry Dreyfuss was brought on board to style the letter series tractors - "A", "B", etc.) to produce a quiet cab with excellent controls, a good HVAC system and the list goes on. The Deere Sound-Gard was good enough and like enough by owners and operators to remain in production til the 90s. How about the A-C cab? Don't make the mistake of thinking that any Deere discussion board regular hasn't spent hour one in Brand X tractors. I grew up on Binders, am currently a Deere tech, worked for a NH dealership on Ford/Versatile/New Hollands and have worked on pretty much every brand along the way to some extent, in addition to spending a fair amount of time in the field. I'm not so sure you want a lot of us over at the tractor wars board.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
thanks guys

12-21-2005 11:20:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
I was considering adding a John Deere to my collection, but after reading all of these comments I am convinced that I will never own a JD. It isn't the tractor, it's the people. Thank you to all, my bank account will remain safe.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
bitbythebug

12-23-2005 17:47:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to thanks guys, 12-21-2005 11:20:44  
I love my John Deere B, but after reading all of these comments, I am reminded of a select few guys in my local tractor club. They are arrogant, and think they are better than the other ninety percent of the club. That is a shame because I thought that this was supposed to be a good, wholesome, past time. Based on what I have seen at tractor shows, pulls, club meetings, and now reading these coments. I feel that there are a few John Deere guys that give the rest of us John Deere guys the type of tension I see here. And the guys that I am referring to will surely surface when they read this. P.S. I know that JD is a good product and I don"t feel the need to argue about it. One of my best friends is a IH collector and we still help each other out with our hobbies, dispite the color difference. Merry Christmas. Dan

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
YOUR RIGHT! IT IS THE PEO

12-21-2005 12:38:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to thanks guys, 12-21-2005 11:20:44  
Its the people that make John Deere the greatest/best farm and heavy equipment company in the world. And if your little baby feelings got hurt by some of the postings, then you deserve to own one of those other 2nd rate tractors, that you said you are going to buy now. Your bank account isn't safe now, you'll just be shellin out more cash on 2nd rate parts for your 2nd rate tractor. Have at it! Good riddence.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
well now

12-21-2005 13:42:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to YOUR RIGHT! IT IS THE PEO, 12-21-2005 12:38:52  
If that's how it is, I would be happy to sell you some second rate parts for your second rate JD. The parts can be drop shipped directly to you from a company that JD owns 30% of.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wheaty

12-21-2005 11:00:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
GO FORD!!!! Lol...

This is what makes the world go round:) Have a Merry Christmas All:)



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike M

12-21-2005 06:14:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
Joel; I read below you want to know about resale in the 70's. I wasn't very old then,but tractors were in high demand and hard to get. You had to special order them and wait. I do remember my uncle had just gotten 2 brand new JD4230's 1 open station the other with cab and fwa. Went back to his place next week and only 1 tractor was there ? What happened to the other tractor ? Dealer called him up and bought it back for MORE than he just paid for it so he let them have the plain jane back. Keep the other for many more trouble free years. He later sold it and down sized and I bet he still got more than he paid for it.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 03:45:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Mike M, 12-21-2005 06:14:44  
I am the 2nd owner of my tractor. The 1st owner bought it new in 1974. He had to wait a while and then finally got it out of Iowa from another dealer. He wanted a much smaller tractor but couldn't find one and ended up buying a 155 hp one. He bought it sight unseen and without ever driving one first. He kept it until he retired and then sold it to me.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
New-Gen

12-21-2005 04:52:22




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
I don't farm with John Deere tractors because I like the color, I farm with John Deere tractors because I can't afford anything else...plain and simple...John Deere tractors are the cheapest tractor you can own IF you're smart enough to look beyond initial cost and figure in total cost of ownership....



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
I love a pull-type

12-20-2005 20:49:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
If you are looking to buy a 7060 allis for 22,000 give me a week and I can find you a dozen and I'll have a very happy New Year



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 03:41:20




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to I love a pull-type, 12-20-2005 20:49:27  
These figures were taken from a 1978 equipment guide book not todays figures. Todays figures reflect that Allis-
Chalmers no longer exist and AGCO doesn't have a good dealer network. But, if you want to discuss it come on over to the controversy board. Or don't. Have a Merry Christmas.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Farmerboy

12-20-2005 17:12:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
Whatever, who cares? You're lookin' for a fight and won't see any reason anyhow. Sometimes smiling and nodding is best, especially when it comes to things highly motivated by nothing more than personal preference. You can't quantify why someone likes JD better than AC or IH better than MM.

We may as well fight over whether the Soviets were worse than the Nazis or whether Green Bay is a better place to live than San Diego.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Buck D.

12-20-2005 16:56:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
Hi JoelS,Those numbers must have come from"The Allis-Chalmers guide to used tractor values". Thats some serious fiction you have there.Head back over to the political board and spin a few tales over there.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
No, not fiction

12-21-2005 03:43:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Buck D., 12-20-2005 16:56:45  
Maybe you can bring your wisdom over to us and enlighten. You would be welcome.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Specter

12-20-2005 16:07:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
Really, what is your point?
There are a lot of variables in resale value. Number of tractors built is one of them. John Deere cranked out a lot of 20, 30, and 40 series New Generation tractors, more than any model of Allis tractor. Also, consider this: How many tractors from that time are still soldiering on? Traveling the country, I still see many, many 20, 30, and 40 series Deeres still working in the field. I have yet to see a single Allis actually working in the field, and I only see the odd one come up at auction sales. Also, consider that John Deere is the only tractor manufacturer that hasn't gone through at least one major merger.
I have spent many, many hours on 20, 30, and 40 series New Generation John Deeres. I have yet to see a finer tractor. (International comes close, but I see you happened to convieniently forget to include their resale values, as well as MM and Oliver.)
If you want to bash at Deere, go somewhere else. You only come across as being an ignorant idiot by posting it on the John Deere forum.

Lyndon
Central Alberta, Canada

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Myrl (PA)

12-21-2005 05:02:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Specter, 12-20-2005 16:07:25  
On the other board joel was trying to convince me that his wd45 would outplow not just my A but my 70 as well. I only farm obout 200 acres but I would still like to see his wd hooked to my 14' disc!!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 07:21:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Myrl (PA), 12-21-2005 05:02:24  
Mounted plow, mounted disc, yep.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 03:35:52




Report to Moderator
 Tell me what you really think in reply to Specter, 12-20-2005 16:07:25  
Take it easy. It was just an invite over to the other board. My original point (back at the other board) was that todays high resale of Deere doesn't reflect a better tractor so much as a better dealer network and better run company. If you don't want to discuss why AC or IH had better resale in the 1970's, then don't. Thanks.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Fear the DEERE!

12-21-2005 07:20:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Tell me what you really think in reply to JoelS, 12-21-2005 03:35:52  
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAHHHHH HHHHH! That's all this topic says. If AC or IH ever did have a higher resale value which I doubt, it was because that model was in such short supply, or it had such low hours on it because the owner was afraid to use it because they would break. HA! HA! HA! HA!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Just reading the facts of

12-21-2005 08:31:07




Report to Moderator
 Re: Tell me what you really think in reply to Fear the DEERE!, 12-21-2005 07:20:49  
That's all.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JUST THE BIAS FACTS.

12-21-2005 12:29:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Tell me what you really think in reply to Just reading the facts of, 12-21-2005 08:31:07  
You must have gotten your facts from the BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAHHHHH HHHHH H PUBLICATION OF WISHFUL THINKING!!! HE! HE! HE! HEEEEE EEEEE!!!!! !



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 04:04:37




Report to Moderator
 Book in reply to JUST THE BIAS FACTS., 12-21-2005 12:29:21  
"Official Guide, Tractors and Farm Equipment, Spring 1978"Published by National Farm & Power Services, INC., a wholly-owned, business corporation of the National Farm & Power Equipment Dealers Association. Says here I can't reproduce any matierial in this publication under penalty of law, so I can't tell you any more.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 13:59:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Tell me what you really think in reply to JUST THE BIAS FACTS., 12-21-2005 12:29:21  
Tommorrow I will give you the title and you can see for yourself. What's your handle?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JDGPWT3132

12-20-2005 16:49:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Specter, 12-20-2005 16:07:25  
Yee hahhh Specter!!!!! !!!!! !!!!!
Go ahead and sock it him!!!!! !!!!! !! Nobody makes fun of John Deere and gets away with it!!!!! !!! Value of a john deere 730 $10000 - Value of a FARMALL 450 $3000, Value of knowing John Deere is the best....- pricless!!!!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Specter

12-20-2005 20:30:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JDGPWT3132, 12-20-2005 16:49:30  
I say it how I see it! :-)

Personally, I would buy the 450 for $3000 rather than the 730 for $10000, but then, that's just me. I have nothing against other colors. All had their own good machines, at some point in time. I'm still mostly green, though! :-)

Now, as to tractor resale prices. You can't justify how good a tractor was based on resale prices. You just can't come to a perfectly logical conclusion. Resale prices all depend on what someone will pay for a tractor. Some people pay way too much, for all colors of tractors. I will guaruntee that you can look in another source, and the numbers will be different.

Everybody had a good tractor in the 70's. John Deere had their 20, 30, and 40 series. International had their 66 and 86 series. Case had their problems with their 70 series, but they were strong tractors. It all comes down to how well you take care of your iron. Take care of it, and it will work to the best of its abilities. Don't take care of it, and any color tractor will pile up.

That said, John Deere has always made very fine quality machinery, from square one to now. Others had some mighty good iron, but let there be no doubt that John Deere made top notch machinery.

Like I said, I say it like I see it! ;-)

Lyndon
Central Alberta, Canada

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JDGPWT3132

12-20-2005 15:22:43




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
How come the John Deeres work harder, tougher, stonger?? That wouldn't be because THEY WERE INFACT BUILT BETTER then the rest, wouldn't it?? When you ask the common folk about a farm, the first thing that probably comes to their minds is John deere. Whats a farmall or an allis chamlers????? ????? ???? A farmer and collector will know the answer but the common folk won't!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Don't know

12-22-2005 05:36:01




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JDGPWT3132, 12-20-2005 15:22:43  
About that, you can cruise up and down just about any road in rural america ans sooner or later you will see a Farmall M or H out there still earning it's keep. The only place you will see a JD of the same vintage is at a tractor show or in a museum.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JDGPWT3132

12-22-2005 15:11:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Don't know, 12-22-2005 05:36:01  
Whats up with you!!?? I have a 720 and 730 still work on my farm and go the shows. I guess you can say John deere can multi-task!!!!! I see a farmall M OR H earning it's keep in the junkyard, plenty of them too, never saw a John deere in the junkyard in 25 years!!!!! !!!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
720D owner

12-21-2005 10:52:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JDGPWT3132, 12-20-2005 15:22:43  
We have a Minneapolis moline M5 that had over 13000 hours on it before overhaul. It's a diesel. I would not say that JD made the best tractors, good tractors yes. The 4020 was completly redesigned from the 4010. They really did make a lot of mistakes in the 4010 and JD admits that. Resale for all old tractors are up. JD has put a lot of money into building its image and products. I remember the local farmers dumping there new JD7800 and complaining they couldn't find a JD4455 to replace it. Had a lot of problems mostly not making power according to our neighbors. John Deere survives because it protects its image. All manufactures have made duds. It what you do with it that counts. John deere needs to count its blessings that it wasn't corporate raided like MM and cockshutt. Some companies can profit there owners better dead than alive even if there a great company.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-21-2005 13:34:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to 720D owner, 12-21-2005 10:52:46  
Uh, what were all the "mistakes" on the 4010? And where is it that Deere "admits that"? Sorry, but the 4010s were pretty darn good tractors, particularly considering that they were 100% new from the ground up, and offered features that had never even been dreamt of in the farm tractor world. Of course the 4020 is a legendary tractor, and rightly so, but the 4020 was not a huge technical advance over the 4010, at least not until the Power Shift came out. As for the 7800 vs. the 4455, I've worked on a few of both, and they each have their pluses and minuses. Sure, if you bought a new box-stock 7800 to replace a hopped up 4455, you might be disappointed in the power.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 14:19:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-21-2005 13:34:47  
I've never thought a 4010 to be great. What advances did the 4010 have that no one else had. I can list closed center hydraulics and maybe power brakes but that is a short list. Does the 4010 have an alternator or dry-type aircleaner, turbocharger, shift-on-the-go, console controls, wet clutch, opposed manifolds, etc. I think I can list more things others had of that era that the 4010 didn't. The Olivers of 1960 weren't bad. AC was kinda behind until the D21, although the D19 had dry air cleaner and turbo by 1961 along with other advances already in the Ac line that Deere had not.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 07:31:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-21-2005 14:19:25  
Want a PARTIAL list? Hydraulically-powered wet-disk brakes. Inboard-planetary final-drives (later copied by everyone). Fully synchronized transmission. Hydrostatic steering (later copied by everyone). Closed-center/constant-pressure hydraulics. Standard mid-mount PTO (later adopted as an option by many manufacturers). An operator station designed AROUND the operator, instead of being plopped on top of the chassis as an afterthought. And of course there were several Deere-only features that were carried over from the two-cylinders - Roll-O-Matic, rack-and-pinion wheel tread adjustment, etc. A turbocharger was not required to produce the power level Deere wanted. I've yet to hear any tractor "expert" explain to me exactly why a crossflow head (opposed manifolds) is superior to a non-crossflow head. Deere continued to use a non-crossflow head up until this year with the introduction of the new 6090 engine - at up to 375 horsepower out of 8.1 liters in marine applications. When did A-C turn out their last engine???

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-22-2005 09:27:52




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-22-2005 07:31:27  
Deere was not first with syncro trans. nor hydrostatic steering, nor midmount PTO, operator station design is just your opinion. Deere only features tell me no one else wanted bad enough to copy, turbocharging provided at the time great fuel economy and great torque rise at nearly all elevations (something NA engines couldn't do). Crossflow head design provides a more even temp in the head and allows the incoming air to be a little cooler. If you need me to explain further I can but you are a good mechanic and I am sure you already knew the answer before you asked. And last I don't know when AC built their last engine. Dec. 1986 for tractors. BTW I'm not trying to tear down Deere and say nasty things, I'm just open for decent discussion.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-22-2005 13:26:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-22-2005 09:27:52  
Go ahead and explain further on the crossflow. I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me exactly how the intake charge and exhaust charge care which side of the head they leave. The "more even temp" in the cylinder head idea doesn't hold water. I'd also like to have the list of which manufacturers DID have the features first that you claim Deere didn't. Operator's station design is not opinion, it's simple fact. Pick any of the various books detailing the development of the New Generation tractors, and you might begin to understand just how major of an accomplishment they were. You sound like one of those guys that is under the impression that somewhere in mid-'59 Deere decided to build a brand-new tractor, and it only took about six months to do. Sorry, but development started in the very early 50s, and the first mockups were built on "A" chassis. The fact that Deere was able to keep the new tractors a complete secret until "D-Day" in Dallas was one of the most impressive demonstrations of corporate secrecy in history. It's also well worth noting that those new tractors, which were "nothing special" according to you, pretty much dictated the design and layout of the Waterloo tractors for the next 30+ years - right up to and including the 4960.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-23-2005 04:59:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to G/MAN, 12-22-2005 13:26:18  
Intake air is not brought so close to the hot exhaust ports. Cooler air means cooler head and more dense charge. You know that. Also longer intakevalve life is expected. AC had a wet multidisc clutch, helical gear transmission, shift-on-the-go before 1960. Power shift wheels, live PTO, live hydraulics, turbocharger, alternator, dry-type aircleaner, draft and position control, console controls, what AC called a "ball room" size operator's platform, tilt steering, pressure and flow compensated hydraulics, remote hydraulics, starter and lights as standard equipment, rubber ag tires, quick attach equipment, were all things AC had before JD and the list can go on. It doesn't mean Deere wasn't good but that they were not the god you make them out to be. I know JD stated developement of the 4010 back in the 50's. AC started the developement of the D series back in the early 40's and had several running prototypes by 1943. Some with a 5 speed power shift. The developement of the D21 started in the mid 50's and looked like an over grown D17. Secret developement was not and is not exclusive to Deere. But Deere does know how to make a show of it. I'll give em that. The 1960 intro in Dallas was a feat in marketing. Using dancing girls to show off farm equipment was sure on the cutting edge of marketing. In the end the one who markets a good product best is the winner and your god-like Deere was that. They won and the winner always gets to tell the story and the winner is the one who is listened to. You get what I mean?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
G/MAN

12-23-2005 07:26:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JoelS, 12-23-2005 04:59:30  
The "D"-series Allises are not what I'd call a technical wonder. Allis continued to use the same basic outdate chassis design - no bar axles, etc. My dad happens to own a D-15, and although a decent little tractor, there are several others (including some non-Deeres) that I would gladly get on first. But back to the intake question. Which do you suppose heats the intake air more? It being compressed by a turbocharger or its quick trip through an intake port adjacent to an exhaust port? As I said, Deere continued to use the same basic head design up until this year, long after anyone else building ag engines in '60 built their last ones. The Deere 400-series engines (the family tree the 4010 engine belongs to) have a service history, production total and reputation far exceeding that of any engine Allis ever built. Allis engines were high-strung, under-cubed units that made their horsepower with RPM, not low-end torque. Deeres get it done at 2200 rpm. And the New Gens were NOT the first Deeres by any means to have live PTO, draft control, live hydraulics, etc. The Custom Power-Trol used on the 20-series two-bangers had load and depth control. The "R" introduced live PTO and hydraulics to the Waterloo line in '47. Several Dubuque models had live hydraulics prior to that. The "dancing girls" in Dallas had nothing to do with the quality of the products. Sure it was a big deal. They flew in every dealer in the country. Many of which probably hadn't been even 100 miles away from Podunk, USA in their entire lives, and they got to see things at Dallas that they'd never seen before and probably never saw again. I don't think there have ever been too many "ice revues" in Nebraska. Had the products not been able to live up to the hype, Dallas would have been a flop. But Deere's HUGE investment (I challenge you to name another farm equipment time that had the capital to pull off what Deere did) paid off big-time.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JoelS

12-21-2005 03:47:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JDGPWT3132, 12-20-2005 15:22:43  
Sounds like some one is head stronger and harder. Come on over and discuss it. Maybe it's me. A fact is a fact is a fact.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
ricedaddy

12-20-2005 15:10:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to Defend Deere, 12-20-2005 14:27:17  
John deere is the only company that hasn't sold out!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JDGPWT3132

12-20-2005 15:24:39




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to ricedaddy, 12-20-2005 15:10:12  
Well put ricedaddy!!!!! !!!!



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Osage

12-21-2005 05:08:23




Report to Moderator
 Re: Form the tractor war and in reply to JDGPWT3132, 12-20-2005 15:24:39  
As I recall, the Ol' Johnny Popper was always the one that was used to get the others started on a cold morning and/or finish the field when they broke down. Sure, everyone bitched about the annoying "Pop,Pop", but is & was the enegizer bunny of the farm.

I finally bought a nice little 1965 John Deere 1010 gas this last summer and have since had a seemingly endless number of folks that would like to buy it.

On the hand, I have a friend that would like to sell his Allis WD45 but can't seem to find anyone interested.

I guess Price/Value will always be an issue,

Osage

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy