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Electronic Ignition 101

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John T

11-20-1999 06:08:35




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OK guys, I know all that G man mumbo jumbo below got a little deep, so heres a little shorter story. With regular ignition points, they close like a switch allowing current to pass through the coils primary. Then, they open and the coils stored energy collapses and a high voltage is induced in the secondary which arc jumps the plug gap. Trouble is, the point surface corrodes and burns and builds up resistive carbon and deteriorates the moment its used, plus there is bouncing ringing intermittent contact when they open and close. However, an elec control unit simply replaces the points with a solid state transistor type switch which is way way way faster at opening and closing and turns on and off almost instantaneously as opposed to bouncing like mechanical points, plus it never (practically speaking) changes or degrades with use. And theres no darn condensor (which reduces point burn out) to go bad either. Therefore (due to many things) its possible to get more energy stored in a coil, a faster turn off time which improves the coils transformer action (no transformer action at DC remember) and you can get more spark energy arcing across the plug gap to better ignite the fuel. If I were pulling and the rules allowed it I would run MSD or Holley or Jacobs type ignition and no distributor. Enough already. Ol John T in Indiana

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jeff

11-22-1999 10:17:40




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 Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-20-1999 06:08:35  
If you folks want to know the rest of the story on conventional ignition systems go to this site & order the Doctors step X step guide. about 1/2 the book is on theory of.

Link

also dont forget about the poormans electronic system!

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/genesee/



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Almost all true

11-21-1999 05:52:01




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 Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-20-1999 06:08:35  
John, there is one thing that is not true about the your very good description. A hotter spark will not make the fuel burn faster or better. Fuel will only burn so fast and so hot. The hotter ignitions systems were designed for high compression and or alcohol. They require more voltage to ensure firing. A HOTTER SPARK WILL NOT GIVE YOU MORE HORSEPOWER.



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Depends on definition of HOTTER

11-21-1999 10:22:05




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 Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to Almost all true, 11-21-1999 05:52:01  
Good point, but the term HOTTER just isnt descriptive enough for what I was saying earlier wihtout getting too detailed. By hotter (typical term around a farm), I really mean in detail, a greater current usually jumping a wider plug gap with, therefore, more actual arc surface area to better ignite the fuel air mixture. My answers usually get too long anyway so I cut a few corners (at the expense of perfect technical accuracy) just tryin to explain a point. Anyway, I agree the physics of fuel burning (once its ignited) isnt increased by a "hotter" spark but a hotter (more current, wider gap, more surface area) spark does a better thorough job of igniting the initial fuel explosion which can contribute to more horsepower (function of torque times rpm) then an inferior less hot ignition. Good point glad to hear from you, but it just gets too wordy and too technical to describe everything in perfect detail on here. Too deep an answer goes over the readers head and may confuse, when I intend to help. Ol John T in Indiana

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Wrong again

11-21-1999 17:33:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to Depends on definition of HOTTER , 11-21-1999 10:22:05  
Sorry, but again you are misleading the people reading this. A bigger, hotter, longer, more power, or wharever you want to call it, spark will NOT give you more power. It sounds good, but it is not true. A spark will cause the fuel to start burning. The fuel gives the power. You can sugar coat your words to make sound like you know it all, but this time you are wrong.



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Lets Dyno Test

11-21-1999 19:06:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to Wrong again, 11-21-1999 17:33:26  
I must respectfully disagree with your hypothesis. Everyone is entitled to an opinion thats whats fun on here and how we all learn from each other. I have both instructed, learned myself, and made many friends on here and this is what its all about. I guess only way to find out which opinion is right is to dyno test once with points and condensor the other with an electronic high energy ignition, and I am willing to bet with the high energy electronic ignition it will produce more horsepower. I know alot of old timers love their good old points and condensors, but the electronic ignition is far superior in spark energy, reliability, and lack of degradation. Nothing like a friendly bet and good to hear from you again. Keep up the good work, but I think the points and condensor are a relic of the past in high performance modern engines. Good Luck and good to hear from you again. Ol John T in Indiana

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JDGnut w/??? for ya, John T.

11-20-1999 19:43:17




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 Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-20-1999 06:08:35  
On those systems, how does it control the timing, as far as advancement and all that stuff. Read, my reply to Gman's question. Always wanted to buid a system like this. Just think it would shock a few souls out there, then they couldn't find the dist. on the tractor, hahaa.

As far as the Ele. I'll never run point again if the rules will let me. I fought them for a long time on the G. Never go back. Later JohnT.

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John T

11-21-1999 10:31:51




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 Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to JDGnut w/??? for ya, John T., 11-20-1999 19:43:17  
Brian, if you run a non distributor ignition, you control advance versus rpm with a computer chip/program in the control module. The way it works is the magnetic pickup unit is set to the maximum physical spark advance, the module is looking at rpm, so at low rpm the module allows a time delay before firing so your not firing too soon. Then as rpm increases, the delay becomes less meaning the spark becomes more advanced and it is all figured perfect for advance versus rpm and doesnt go bad like weights and springs and all that mechanical stuff. I would trigger off the cam and have MSD program the advance versus RPM from 100 up to 3500 rpm if you turn that fast. John Nordhoff aka Ol John T in Indiana

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JDGnut

11-21-1999 10:48:51




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 Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-21-1999 10:31:51  
So the MSD box can control the advance/delay. MSD can write the program/chip to match the application.(Is this correct.) I've never had a chance to mess with these type systems, the MSD and others. Not a 100% how all of it work, but got a pretty good idea. I just need to find a little more info and read up on it. The reason thought of using the Crank sensor instead, is that the flywheel is easily to access, and easy to adjust. Could always use the governor shaft, where the dist used to be, but its still turning the same as the crank, so still be in the same boat with the extra fire times, but that's not problem. We are finally going to get some pullin rules down here, too bad I'm not going to be able to do some things like this. Or maybe we'll just make an open class, like Gman is after.

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Gman

11-21-1999 23:45:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to JDGnut, 11-21-1999 10:48:51  
JDnut--if I'm not mistaken the LP distributor only fires twice,where as the standard distributors fire four times. This has me scratching my head on the setup I'm tinkering with,you see one cylinder will have two plugs and be fed from each distributor I think I can make it work. I would like that one distributor only fire twice,Magneeders makes his hot mags fire only twice(Mr.Chandler) so there is a way to make the distribtor do the same. Later Gman413

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John T

11-21-1999 11:16:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to JDGnut, 11-21-1999 10:48:51  
Well, MSD and others can program advance on high rpm 8 cylinder racing engines, but on a low rpm 2 cylinder it may be a special order expensive item?? Maybe the crank trigger is easier, I was just thinkin of a cam trigger in the more old fashion way since one revolution of it would trigger one cylinders firing. I was considering there more of a home made trigger with two magnet points on a cam extension, each trigger then firing a Chrysler type module. The off the shelf triggers are just a flat disk and arent that expensive or hard to mount. Heck on a flywheel all you need is to machine in a tiny magnet and use that to trigger a pick up coil but if you want an elec advance, then you gotta have MSD build it in. Maybe a distributor with at least a mechanical advance is an easier way to go in retrospect, but you can still use an elec ignition pick up coil and control unit and high energy coil no problem with a regular distributor. Do you agree that one plug in cylinder wall side top and one in head may be unproductive since there are two opposing shock waves from different directions?? Planes use two for backup but theyre both in same place about. John T

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JDGnut

11-21-1999 18:43:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-21-1999 11:16:44  
yea, I guess that I do agree that the explosion could counter act each other. But still am intrested in how it will act in reality. We both know that sometimes theories and laws were ment to be broken. Hell I think I'd take two big Dists, like NHRA uses and stick them out the side and just use two of the plug termails on each, find the biggest plug wires I could (So everyone could see them, have to be yellow of course.) I wouldn't care if one didn't work as long as everyone else thinks that it work, be happy with me. Have to sike them out. I can't wait to see Gman's machine when he's finished. Been havin Carb problems on everything, been thinkin about Fuel Injection, now that will be cool. haa there I go dreamin again, but I do have the injectors and a few spare parts, hmmmm, now do I want that to be multi port or sequenial injection, hmmmm maybe tuned port. I'll have to work on that. Later John T. and all.
JDGnut

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zane

11-21-1999 18:38:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to John T, 11-21-1999 11:16:44  
John T: A tip 'o my hat to you. I have enjoyed your discussion of electronic ignition.



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John T

11-21-1999 19:11:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Electronic Ignition 101 in reply to zane, 11-21-1999 18:38:05  
Thanks zane Ol Buddy I am glad you did, looks like some guy above there isnt appreciating it near as much. Oh well maybe hes havin a bad day I sure have them myself time to time and cant blame anyone else for the same !! John T



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