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John T

11-23-1999 14:59:25

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As you guys who have been visiting here the last year know, Im usually a pretty good hand to offer advice on problems such as when a hand crank tractor doesn�t start and know a little about plugs and electricity and timing and mags etc. So I have a discussion question that I have a hard time understanding myself. Lets assume you have a hand start JD that�s been overhauled and the timing and plugs and ignition are all absolutely perfect. Then, if you pull that flywheel over and there�s good compression and the mag fires and theres at least some sort of gas/air mixture under pressure when a plug fires, how come it doesn�t at least explode/pop or even start any time and every time you pull her over ???? Now don�t get me wrong, during show season mine (overhauled and all new ignition etc) starts easy and may even often the first piston over (if no ones watching, especially Ol Ed and all my neighbor in front of whom it wont hardly ever start even with a stick of dynamite). Still, I went to her the other day after it had been sitting a few weeks and it took a lot of choking and several pulls before she started. As you guys know, I�m pretty picky and always say the amount of choke is very critical and don�t flood the tractor etc. so I�m not necessarily talkin about my tractor or what happened yesterday, I�m asking how can it be that if you have gas and air mixed and compression in a cylinder in which a spark jumps, why doesn�t it at least pop/explode each and every time you pull her over?? Is it that there�s too much gas which shorts and floods the plugs (that�s so if flooded) or there�s not enough gas in with the air so it doesn�t explode at all (I think that�s more likely) or what??? It just seems if there�s any sort of gas air mixture under pressure and it sparks, it oughta at least pop. On my elec. start models, they almost always pop the first time over so why don�t the hand crankers also always pop the first and each piston over ??? For one thing, the distributor and battey ignitions do have a higher energy spark so that helps starting, but even with a mag, why don�t they fire each time up if you have gas and air under pressure and a spark jumps??? Maybe I�m too much a perfectionist in expecting one to always start the first pull (or at least pop) any and every time you pull her over but wanna know why they don�t when everything is perfect??? John Nordhoff aka Ol John T Engineer from Indiana

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Larry

11-24-1999 17:19:36

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

If a engine has been sitting for a while(days),the first time up to compresion maybe a dry run (no feul)Try takeing it up to compesion, then back it up, bring it to compresion and back her up again.Then roll her over the compresion.When you do this she gets a few mouth fulls of air and feul to get her going.

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Mongo

11-24-1999 16:23:32

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Obviously it is demonic possession. I have seen it once before in an outboard engine. This engine was made by Johnson. The only way to exorcize the demon was to yell "HONDA" right before pulling it...

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Red Man

11-24-1999 13:53:04

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

One thing you all haven't addressed is the weak, no guts gasoline of today. I remember when I was a kid you could pour some gas on some old paper fertilizer bags, then throw a match at them and it would really blow. Now when you do the same thing today with seed corn bags all it does is go "poof". That's my 2 cents worth.

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Paul

11-26-1999 05:43:51

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Re: Re: Discussion Question in reply to Red Man, 11-24-1999 13:53:04

I think the paper was made a lot better back then also . . Just kidding - Good discussion - really enjoyed it.

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Tugboat

11-24-1999 08:49:39

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

I understand your frustration. I once worked on my daughters car for an entire weekend just to get the darn thing started. It had good compression, good spark (and at the right time),it had fuel,it had fuel pressure,it had a strong battery that I kept charging up with my charger as I used it up from all that cranking. The starter was fine. The choke was fine and the accelerator pump pumped in lots of fuel. I tried and checked everything over and over again but it would not run. It would sputter and try to start but it would not run! By Sunday evening I was fit to be tied. There is no way that I was going to let this car win. I had spent about $100 on plugs,a fuel pump,a distributor cap,points,etc and it had to run but it wouldn't. Once again I climbed up on the hood to look into the carb and watch the fuel spray in as I pumped the accelerator linkage.(Dangerous but I was desperate) When I had my nose over the carb I noticed a strange smell. To shorten up a long story, my wonderful daughter had filled up the gas tank with kerosene. The car runs fine now and the relationship with my daughter is getting better every day. Regards; Tugboat

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Thanks Guys

11-24-1999 06:03:12

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Thanks guys between here and Rummys with all the good answers I now believe its a combinationm of lower compression (slow crank and more leaks off) lower air velocity across the carb venturi resulting in a poor or incorrect atomized mist fuel/air mixture, the darn plug settin way over there on one side where its spark may not ignite the unatomized fuel/air etc etc. Note this wasnt one of my Quiz Questions where I knew the answer, I posed this one to learn and I have thanks to the discussion. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Ol John T

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11-24-1999 04:36:27

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Interesting!!! I always kinda blamed myself if one of mine balks, anytime my ole hand crank G has ever made me work to start it, I was visiting with someone when I was starting it, (not paying attention). The smaller the engine, the toucher they are. An unstyled B is probably the worst because there is no compression release valves to help get rid of the excess gas if you flood it. Just an opinion! Don

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Chuck

11-23-1999 20:41:30

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

every tractor that I've owned starts differently. Personally I believe this unleaded gas is the death toll for these tractors. I believe it has such poor ignition qualities that we need electronic ignition to fire it off. I wish I had for comparison some of the old ethyl about 95-100 octane. I bet that tractor would seem like a whole different machine.

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James Borders

11-25-1999 10:31:00

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Re: Re: Discussion Question in reply to Chuck, 11-23-1999 20:41:30

I have an Unstyled B 1935 and it is all that I can do to turn it over to start it. It is about 4 years since the motor was rebuilt and used to start easy but now it is getting to where it does't want to start as easy as it once did. But I don't see any reason for it not to start Frustrating isn't it , I know the feeling all the rest of you have

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Chuck

11-23-1999 20:41:23

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

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Fudd

11-23-1999 19:45:01

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

That's a good question. I agree with the intake manifold being questionable but that wouldn't account for a good start one time and a bad start another time. I started driving a 41 B when I was seven and the B was ten and I don't ever remember it not starting right up, of course that was a long time ago. I spent many, many hours on that thing and drove it when it was mighty cold so I guess it was a good starter. But then it was relativly new compared to how old it would be now. Again, good question.

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Redneck

11-23-1999 18:46:19

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Good question. I ain't no expert by any stretch of the imagination. All of my 2 cyl JD's are elec. start. Each and every one starts just a little differently in how much you need to choke it. My guess would be that it takes a pull or two to get the fuel/air mix right. Of course Murfey is alive and well when someone is watching. My neighbor has a stationary eng they use to pull a corn grinder. One day while I was visiting they pulled it till they were wore out and gave up. I pulled it about 5 times and she came to life. BTW I enjoy ya'lls discussion questions and have learned a great deal from them.

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Dick C

11-23-1999 18:40:26

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Well John, I have the same problem as the rest of the crew, but I do have my own theories. Most of my tractors are hand start, but I do have a couple of electric starts with which to compare them. As the others said, you first have to have all of the components in pretty good order. The true variable is the carburator. There is very little gas and air velocity when just turning the flywheel over, so any variation in the mix is major. I know that each of us has determined from experience just the right amount of choke and throttle setup to get her going. Usually, when there are other people around, we are talking and unconciously err in one direction or the other with the throttle or choke. This error is often just enough to keep it from starting. The only reason the electric start model fires is just more revolutions in a shorter period of time. This gives the governor a chance to kick in and balance out the load. Best wishes.

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Fuel\air ratio @ spark

11-23-1999 18:02:05

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

All: The ratio of fuel (good quality gas) to air had to be approx 15 to one.. This has to be at the point where the spsrk is. Slow hand cranking may not get the mixture just right? The range has to be like 15:1 give or take 15 percent and that may not be present close enough to the point of spark. A lite match can be held very close to liquid gas and nothing will hapen.....up to a point..(don't try that at home) same idea to your not starting? H

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Shorty Dear

11-23-1999 17:56:25

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

Well John T., you guys have succeeded in confusing this old Texas guy again. I just read where it doesn't help to twist a hand crank flywheel over real hard, and now I'm reading where the electric start tractor starts easier and faster because it turns over faster??? I don't ever try to answer these questions because I don't even have a clue. I do however really enjoy reading the answers(most are very good,Too). There is a bunch to be learned on these forums. Good tractoring everyone! Shorty Dear

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msj

11-23-1999 17:46:30

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

I think there are three things that make a usually good starting tractor start hard on occasion.

The first, dirty plugs- 'nough said.

Second, (this is for the hand-starters, so the
rest of you just skip to the final part) I suspect old manifolds may play a part. When your
engines running it makes a pretty good vacuum to suck the air/fuel into the cylinder. However, when you're rolling it over slowly it may be that
the inside has become rusted and pitted and this could disrupt the flow into the cylinders. I have the original hot manifold on my '36 A and I
don't always get a good fuel balance when I hand
start it- the left cylinder can be dry while the
right is flooded. I suppose I could be scientific and buy a pulling manifold where the
inside has been honed as smooth as glass to see
if there is any difference, but where's the charm
in having an easy starting tractor?

Finally, I firmly believe in the embarassment
factor. If there's a way in which you will look
like a fool in front of a croud, it's going to happen. Even worse is when there is a camera to
permanently record your bout with failure.

msj

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Matt

11-23-1999 15:31:26

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Re: Discussion Question in reply to John T, 11-23-1999 14:59:25

I can't answer your question. I'm just glad to know there are other tractors out there that don't start when people are watching. I have a '37 B starts ok for the most part but if people are around at a show...forget it,sometimes I get lucky but if a ford person near it won't even pop. Matt (NW Indiana)

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JDGnut

11-23-1999 17:13:43

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Re: Re: Discussion Question in reply to Matt, 11-23-1999 15:31:26

Well this is just theory, but here goes. On the electric starts they seems to start quicker because of the speed that the engine is turning over. The faster the air flows through the carb the better the fuel and will be atomized and mixed with the air. Like when my tractor has an atitude and won't start, and I get mad and running the battery dead trying,(Probably had the fuel turned off.) usually when I pull it it start the first time. I guess on the hand crankers, it takes a few pulls to get the right mixture. ( I don't know really, just shootin in the wind.) Maybe its to get the owner warmed up, because if you're hand crankin on a Deere, pretty good chances you ain't got power steering. You got a good one here, I think they don't want to start in a croud, because they don't want to brag. But once you get them rollin, there ain't no stoppin them. hahaa (See I hold you I just shootin in wind. hheee)

JDGnut

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John T

11-23-1999 15:48:55

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Re: Re: Discussion Question in reply to Matt, 11-23-1999 15:31:26

Matt, yeah mines kinda shy also at shows I try and sneak up beside her so no ones watchin and it often starts first pull but if I dare brag about that and someone watches, a stick of dynamite wouldnt lite her off. I pulled in the Indy State Fairgrounds this summer right near the main walkway and a crowd gathered to watch me unload and I was scared to death but she started pretty easy to my surprise. Im down here in Bloomington good to hear from you I made it to Tipton this summer to see Terry Ploughe and his 60 some John Deeres at that show alone. Ol John T

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