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Pulling over a tree...

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Jim4020

06-26-2006 08:49:42




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Want to get the thoughts of you guys on this. I have a Pin Oak tree, about 15" Diameter and 60' tall. It's not a very bushy tree It's leaning over a cabin and I would like to pull it over, away from the cabin. My plan is to tie onto it about 25' up and pull it over with the 4020. I am aware of the concerns of the chain breaking, etc. I just feel that if I get up that high on the tree, it won't take much to bring it over.
Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim

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H. Yoder

06-27-2006 18:19:20




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
You have to see how bad the tree leans over the cabin and wich way the heavier limbs go. There is no way you will pull it out with the tractor unless you have some really loose soil. Your cable needs to be at least 75ft. because when the tree comes down you don't know how many limbs or how big will break opff and fly in the air. The best way is to hook up the tractor and put the cable as high in the tree as possible and just pull till it is tight notch the tree in the direction you want it to go take the tip of the saw and cut about 2" in to the heart and then go to the back side of the tree and cut strait towards the notch for better control until you get close watch for the tree to start to pinch the saw or for a gap to appear then and only then have the person on the tractor start to ease forward if it starts to pull hard stop and cut some more if it leans to one side cut on that side at this time and hold on the other side. don't pull real hard with the tractor until it goes easy and when it goes then have the tractor in 4th or 5th gear and go as fast as you can. If the tree leans heavy over the cabin then rent a skylift and take it down in small pieces most of all be carefull.

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John VB

06-27-2006 05:33:57




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
I took down about 15 big elm trees around my house. I got a half-inch stainless steel cable 100 foot long. I attached it up the tree as high as possible. I used a JD620 and put enough tension on the tree to bend it over a bit. I then had a helper on the tractor and I cut the back of the tree. When it was almost all the way through, the tractor would easily pull it over. I then had a guy come in with a big track-mountd back hoe to remove the stumps. Good luck and be careful.

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buickanddeere

06-26-2006 22:14:05




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Falling tree v.s 4020? My money is on the tree. As previously stated set up cables, ropes or a chain system with a winch or such.



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van robinson

06-26-2006 19:20:42




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Jim, what we do in a situation like that is use the tractor (or another tree if possible) as a dead man. We tie onto the tree with a suitable chain or cable and pull the tree a bit. Then we lock the brakes on the tractor and let it hold tension on the tree. If you are good at cutting trees down, you can leave a bit of wood on one side and make the tree fall over to the side. Using the tractor as a dead man, the tension of the cable will help pull the tree around and fall to the side, assuming you cut it right. I have done this several times. I hate trying to pull a tree over due to the fact that it may actually work and fall over on me. I did this once, luckily it was a small tree. If the tree is leaning bad, you may just have to bite the bullet and get a tree cutting service or trackhoe to do it. It is expensive, but beats a hospital visit, destroyed tractor or rebuilding cabin!

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johns48b

06-26-2006 18:22:41




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
cut the tree first and cut it up as high as you can so you'll have some leverage for a back hoe to use to help get the stump up. use a weight on the end of a rope and throw the weight over a limb and the pull a cable up with the rope and then around the tree. if the weight doesn't go where you want it to go let the weight down and then pull the free end of the rope across and try again. if you try to pull the weight back up it will get caught in the tree. next don't use a hook on the end of the cable that your going to pull around the tree. use a clamp and make a loop around the cable and then put a clamp on it and pull it up snug by hand. the cable has got to be pointed right straight at the pulling vehicle, preferably a tractor. if its to one side it will make the tree spin when you pull on it. if you don't have enough room to pull the tree straight where you want it to go you can chain a pulley to another tree and put your pulling tractor at an angle. put a little tension on the cable and shake the tree just a little to see if anything is going to fall out of it on the guy with the chain saw. don't put the tractor in a slow gear. it has to be in a fast enough gear to pull the tree a little ways when it starts falling to make sure you get it started in the way you want it to go. i've never dug up a bigger stump without having to be able to dig down four sides of it and then use the bucket teeth to work your way around under the stump to cut the roots from under the stump. don't try to dig with the teeth, but use them more like a knife to cut the roots all the way around. leaving as much stump as you can gives the backhoe some leverage to pull the stump up with. be careful and have plenty of help around in case something goes wrong.

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James Nauert 420W

06-26-2006 17:41:14




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
It would be safer to hook a pully to an anchor point ie another tree down low. Then use a cable to pull the opposite direction, this method will save you a broken back or a crushed skull if the chain breaks. There are alot of people six feet under that thought it would not happen to them.



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Nylon

06-26-2006 15:35:21




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
I have 4020 and do plenty of smaller tree pushovers with the bucket. Once they get too big Make it easy on yourself and everyone. Get a trackhoe in there. They can push it over nice and pluck that stump and put it right where you want it. Right tool for the right job. Forget chaining high.



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fun stuff

06-26-2006 15:31:45




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
We had some trees dropped at home. They used some high-test ropes (long) and two pick-up trucks. The ropes were 10,000+ pound test. You can use small, slick string with weights to get the ropes up high in the tree and pull the strong ropes up with them. The pick-ups were there to provide tension and to guide the tree down. It doesn't take that much force when you cut the tree. (We even cut down a 12" diameter tree by pulling the rope by hand.) It's nice to have the trucks because they can move out of the way when you need them to. I'm sure there are some pages on the internet that can outline a safe procedure.

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ebbsspeed

06-26-2006 14:57:20




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
I've pulled a few over, used steel cable long enoough to be out of the way of the top of the tree before I start the pull. One tip that will help, start to soak the ground a couple of days before you want to pull it over. I had a maple tree with about a 12-14 inch diameter trunk that wouldn't go one day, so I ran the sprinkler under the tree for two days, then pulled on it again. Most of the roots slid out of the ground like butter. Might be a different story if you're in rocky soil.

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RICHARDJ

06-26-2006 12:32:53




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Have pushed over many pines which is worse than a hardwood due to the tap root.

Here is how I do it with a BACKHOE. Put the backhoe between the tree and the direction YOU DO NOT WANT THE TREE TO GO close to the tree (where you can dig with natural rythmn. Work your bucket vertical to the ground - don't lay it out -more strength this way. Curl your bucket and bring it in.

Start digging. This allows the roots on the other side to hold (keeping it from blowing over you, the backhoe and the cabin. Your oak has surface roots, dig through them until you get past them into the dirt. Dig half way around the tree or as much as you can without moving. Reach up with your bucket with the teeth stuck in the tree - push, push steady. Will not go, ease off slowly. Dig some more and push until she falls over. No sudden fast, erratic movements. You have to control the tree. You put pushing pressure on it and suddenly let off it is coming back fast and uncontrolled. You ease it back vertical.

You could have a chain hooked to the tractor putting tension on the tree. Don't try and pull it with the tractor just keep pressure on it until you see it going over then get out of the way.

IF YOU USE A CHAIN USE CLEVIS AND SHACKLES DON'T I SAY DON'T NEVER DEPEND ON A SEIZE HOOK.

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Jim4020

06-26-2006 12:49:12




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to RICHARDJ, 06-26-2006 12:32:53  
RichardJ,

I wasn't saying that it should or shouldn't be done with a backhoe. I have pushed a few over as well with a backhoe. I was just commenting that that has inherent dangers with it as well, but you use common sense and sound judgement and you don't have any issues. The area where this is at doesn't lend itself to using a backhoe, or that's probably what I would use.

Jim



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Henry M

06-26-2006 12:04:23




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Jim, sounds like you been around.

I bet the 4020 won't pull it out he he.

If it was mine i wuld get hooked up and put the slickest operator on the tractor and then have the non slick operator use a chain saw and cut the stump until it pulls easily and peels off at the saw point.

Yeah Yeah I know, the tree removal people are professionals, however I bet not many of them are rocket scientist material - kinda like me, never made the grade.

Leave enough stump so you can do a totempole or make it into a shair with the chain saw.

good luck.

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Jim4020

06-26-2006 12:16:32




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Henry M, 06-26-2006 12:04:23  
Henry, Thanks for the reply. Yeah, that's probably what I will end up doing. Pull on it a bit, and then cut it. But I thought it might just uproot.

Jim



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Jim4020

06-26-2006 11:05:35




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Ok guys, I get the point. and I do realize how one must remain safety conscious at all times. But just working around machinery in general is dangerous, yet we all do it. With some common sense and experience, a lot of these things we hear about could have been avoided.

You can say to dig it out with a backhoe, but then you go over to another board, and everyone on there says, don't dig out a tree cause you are digging out its foundation and you're right next to it. It will fall over on you.

I've fallen a many a tree and pulled quite a few full trees out to be cut up. Many of them, two or three times the size of the one I am looking to pull over. I just thought if I had a 12,000 lb test chain, at a long enough length, it really should come over quite easily. And if it didn't want to uproot, I would cut it and pull it over.

Jim

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Glen in TX

06-26-2006 10:11:31




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Chains are dangerous enough and not rated for a unknown pulling load. Don't ever use chains in conjuction with a tow rope or tow strap that when it breaks can slingshot the chain at you! That can happen just using chains too and the tree can become a giant slingshot throwing chain at you, cabin or someone else far away. I already know of two killed that way and that's too many. Hire some help with a backhoe and be safe.

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DP

06-26-2006 09:55:50




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Do yourself and your family a favor an hire a trackhoe to drop it. You can still hook up and drag it where you want it after its down. Life is just too short as it is with out taking chances like that! Don



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P Browning

06-26-2006 09:49:35




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
JIM -- 60 ft tall, and attaching to it at 25 ft up leaves some 35 feet between the tree's top and your tie point. Be certain that the chain between your drawbar and the tie point is at least that 35 feet, and then add another ten feet for good measure. The last thing you need is to pull it down on top of you.

The other issue -- be sure your chain is strong enough for the job. One can just imagine pulling the tree about a fourth of the way & then the chain breaks -- allowing the tree to whip the other way - not stopping until its on top of your cabin! Have fun! (Pat B)

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RICHARDJ

06-26-2006 10:07:41




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to P Browning, 06-26-2006 09:49:35  
Am I understanding this: a squared plus b squared equals c squared.

b squared is 25 x 25 equals 625
c2 (the hippopotamus is 35 plus 10 = 45 X45 which equals 2025.

2025 minus 625 equals 1400. square root of 1400 is 37.42 feet from the base of the tree.

Where is this tree so I can be sure I am elsewhere.



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720Deere

06-26-2006 12:46:25




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to RICHARDJ, 06-26-2006 10:07:41  
Pat's measurements work in theory, but you better have a powershift 4020 and go like the wind once that tree starts over. The 45' of cable or chain is enough to "get away" from the tree, but it assumes that the tractor will be able to move fast enough to overcome the speed of the tree falling towards it.

I have pushed plenty of large trees over with a track loader and I would be willing to bet that you can't outrun the tree. Starting out at 37' from the base of the tree you have to travel more than 25' to safely clear the tree as it falls. This will occur in less than 2 seconds once you have the tree over far enough for it to fall. You need to be traveling something like 13 to 15 feet/second to outrun the tree. Like I said before it better be powershift to go from low gear pulling to 10+ mph with not a second to spare.

The safest bet (if there is one) would be to have enough cable/chain to be out of tree range before you even start. For a 60' tree with the attach point 25' up the tree you would need at least 65' of cable to be safe.

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P Browning

06-26-2006 20:54:58




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to 720Deere, 06-26-2006 12:46:25  
720 Deere -- So right you are! With my skimpy measure, you would have to have TA in your tractor and go like the wind once she starts to come! I've always had grief messing with a tall tree like that -- and now see one of the errors of my ways! lol. (PatB)



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Mike M

06-26-2006 09:40:52




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
I perfer a long cable hooked to the DRAWBAR. It might just come on over if the roots are shallow and the ground soft.

I had our 4020 hooked onto some kinda tree I never did pull it over but the thing did snap off.



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RICHARDJ

06-26-2006 09:32:19




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
#1 Be sure hospitalization and life insurance policies are paid current.

#2 Devise a method to cut the tree off of you and the tractor if it works - betting it doesn't. You will be pulling the tree towards you and the tractor unless you use blocks to change the angle of dangles.

#3 Speaking of dangles, devise a method to safely bail off the tractor when the tree whips back.

#4 How you gonna control where it falls?

IT WILL NOT WORK

Get a back hoe and dig out the roots half way around the tree on the cabin side. Push the tree over, pushing away from the cabin. The back hoe will control back lash and possibility of falling on cabin.

WORSE CASE

#5. Find yellow page advertisement for builders of new cabins.

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rurlndum

06-26-2006 09:26:03




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 08:49:42  
Are you trying to get the tree to come down or just move it?



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Jim4020

06-26-2006 09:27:01




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to rurlndum, 06-26-2006 09:26:03  
I want to remove the tree totally.



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rurlndum

06-26-2006 10:27:37




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Jim4020, 06-26-2006 09:27:01  
Professional tree fallers use a safe sufficient lenth of heavy wire cable and use the tractor to put tension on the tree while they cut it down with a chain saw. The tree is supposed to follow the tractor and the cable. Sometimes it doesn't.

Please use a professional for this project!



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Skyhawk Greg

06-26-2006 14:22:34




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to rurlndum, 06-26-2006 10:27:37  
Just did the same thing with a similar height and trunk diameter tree. The big difference was that if it fell the wrong way, it would go on my neighbor's house - not mine. Yes, it was already leaning his direction! Number one rule - Take your time and think things out. If you are the type of person who lives for this sort of thing, there is nothing anyone can say to stop you, so, at least put the odds in your favor. If you use a steel cable, make sure that it is longer than 1-1/2 times the tree height (in this case). This way, even if the tree falls directly toward the tractor, it cannot land on the tractor and the driver. Make sure that everything is clear in the tractor-side semi-circle, because the tree may fall anywhere within this area. Attach the cable as securely as if you were going to travel across the country with it. If it can come loose, it will do so at the absolute worst time. Take up the slack in the cable with the tractor. Now notch the tree in the direction you wish it to fall. Notching between 1/2 and 2/3 the diameter should work with a nice wide V-section. Now have the driver put more tension on the cable and, from the non-tractor side of the tree, cut from above the notch toward the notch at a downward angle. Do this very slowly. Listen for noises. Step back and have the tractor pull a little more. Repeat until it topples. Do not force anything. Let gravity do it's thing. You are just guiding it, not bowling it over. Keep in mind, that if you have to run, you may want to just leave the chainsaw where it is. I have seen people (more than one), almost get killed because they wanted to take the chainsaw with them when they started to run. That split second extra can cost you your life. That tree can still do supernatural things, and it will definitely win if it wants to. I am sure I have forgotten something, but one more little tip is to wait until a day when the wind is strong, and in your favor. Oh yeah, no kids or beer drinking buddies anywhere in the vicinity. Doing this sort of thing can be quite satisfying, but remember, if things go wrong, they can go REALLY wrong. Good luck!

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buickanddeere

06-26-2006 22:18:27




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 Re: Pulling over a tree... in reply to Skyhawk Greg, 06-26-2006 14:22:34  
Correct about a tree taking a jump in unexpected directions. You can not just look and know what stresses are pre-loading the tree and how the tree is carrying the load. 2X cable length is safer.



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