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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump

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Jim/41_9N

04-23-2007 10:42:53




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I"m working on a 1969 John Deere 820, 3 cylinder diesel. The problem is the rack and pinion going into the injection pump is frozen. This is a small Roosa Master Pump (see pic).
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About a year ago we turned the pinion gear about 180 degrees to get out of a worn spot. That worked good for awhile, but now after the winter the rack is frozen. I"ve been trying to free it up without success. My thought was to pull the pump and go from there, possibly bringing it to an injection shop. I"m a little stuck as to how and remove the pump. Here"s what I"ve done: I rotated the motor until the #1 on the crankshaft pulley aligned with the mark on the motor casting. This was directly before the #1 intake valve was to open. This should be TDC, correct? Next I removed all the injector lines, and then I removed the two nuts that hold the pump body on. This is where you can rotate the pump for timing. The pump will not pull out as it seems the gear is holding he body up behind the large plate the pump shaft goes through. My next thought was to try and remove this plate, but after undoing the bolts I could see, the plate is still pretty secure. It appears it is between the block casting and the front casting the plate is bolted to. Next I decided to stop.

Maybe I don"t need to remove the pump to fix the rack and pinion for the throttle? If not, how could I make this repair? If I do need to remove the pump any idea"s as to how to remove the pump so I can re-install it later with correct timing.

Thanks in Advance,

Jim

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jdemaris

04-23-2007 17:38:32




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to Jim/41_9N, 04-23-2007 10:42:53  
This is just in addition to my other reply. Looked at my application list to see which C pump you have. It's the CBC series - either a CBC331-4AL or a 14AL. Remove the little access door in front and remove the three shear bolts and also the center thrust-bolt. Whenever you have your rack and pinion gears out - make sure you grease them before reinstalling. Maybe your's just require cleaning and greasing? And maybe since you've already turned the pinion over once already, it's had it.

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Jim/41_9N

04-23-2007 18:00:08




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to jdemaris, 04-23-2007 17:38:32  
jdemaris,

That looks just like the pump I have. The Tag on the pump shows it to be a CDC model. CDC331-8DQ? The last digit is about illegible. The access door on the front-timing cover is what I must have been missing so far. I need to drain the radiator and remove the lower radiator hose for better access & view.

>>I used to keep a bag of gear-sets in my tool box for road calls. Today ?? Most parts became obsolete for the C pumps back in the early 80s. Deere was selling changeover kits to update tractors - e.g. your 150 diesel - to the later pumps<<

Do you think I can locate a rack & pinion set? Maybe you got a set left over in that bag of yours!

Do you think I just need to jam the old rack out, clean up the tube a bit and install another set? I don't think cleaning up the old rack is a good option. Though I guess I won’t know till I get it out. Do you know if the tube attached to the pump (in your last pic) can be removed without removing the pump? I'm not sure if I need to remove it, but the rack is pretty well frozen in there.

I really appreciate the info!

Thanks,

Jim

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jdemaris

04-23-2007 19:19:53




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to Jim/41_9N, 04-23-2007 18:00:08  
You know - I think I've worked on a couple of 820s and 1020s that had CDC pumps on them - but according to Deere Co. they weren't used on those green machines. The yellow version - the JD300 - which has the same 152 c.i. engine as yours - DID use the CDC331-8DG. That's probably the pump you have. The reason Deere Co. was selling changeover kits for new D-series pumps in the early 80s was because Stanadyne was dropping parts-support for all the C pumps. At that time, I knew a number of pump shops that were stock-piling repair parts. But . . . that was over 20 years ago. I don't know if you can find them somewhere or not. You might try first with Deere. Deere Co. used to sell those parts under a Deere part # (I can look it up for you if needed). Deere might have a dealer who has it in old-stock. I just got a hydraulic pump repair kit for my 1960 Deere that was obsolete in 1963 - but Deere checked their computer "obsolete parts database" and found one in a dealer's stock. (Webster Electric pump for a 1010). I haven't worked in an injection pump shop since 1991 - so I'm not up to date on what is availble with all stuff. I do more truck pumps now than tractor. A guy I know that has his own pump shop is one of those guys that was buying up obsolte Roosamaster parts year's ago. His sons now run his business and they do the auto-truck pumps - but old Ralph still comes in and does the older farm injection pumps. Call him and ask. He is Ralph Senior - at Ralph's Diesel - 315-655-3702 - Cazenovia, NY. I haven't called him in a year, hopefully he hasn't "kicked the bucket" yet. In regard to removing the entire metering-valve tube - it can be removed - it's held in by one lock-bolt. But - I advise you not too. Once you go that far, you can really get into a mess. I'd get that rack and pinion out, clean the crud and rust out of it, and see if you have any teeth left. If you need the old Deere part #, or more info, let me know.

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jdemaris

04-23-2007 16:12:21




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to Jim/41_9N, 04-23-2007 10:42:53  
You don't need to remove the pump to fix the rack and pinion. However - if you do want to remove it - you have to remove the little access door on the front-timing cover. then unbolt the drive gear where it attaches to the pump. Then the pump can be removed. There's a slight difference on the bolts between the CDC and the CBC models - but both C series are bolted to the drive-gear. One setup uses special hollow shear-bolts that are designed to break if the pump siezes. Later engines with the B series pumps use a shear-shaft instead. Putting rack and pinions into C pumps used to be a common repair and a 15 minute job. I used to keep a bag of gear-sets in my tool box for road calls. Today ?? Most parts became obsolete for the C pumps back in the early 80s. Deere was selling changeover kits to update tractors - e.g. your 150 diesel - to the later pumps.

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G/MAN -

04-23-2007 13:42:10




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to Jim/41_9N, 04-23-2007 10:42:53  
TDC #1 compression will have to occur after the intake valve has opened, the piston has travelled down on the intake stroke and has travelled back up on the compression stroke. Keep in mind that a piston in a 4-stroke engine has 2 TDC events for every cycle, or two crankshaft revolutions - one at the top of the compression stroke, and one at the top of the exhaust stroke. It sounds to me like you're at the TDC at the top of the exhaust stroke, because if the intake valve is just opening, the exhaust valve is just closing. I'm not familiar with that engine or injection pump, but there should almost certainly be some sort of internal timing mark for the injection pump itself, possibly behind a small cover and the mark may be on the rotor. Once you've established TDC #1 compression for the engine, maintain it simply by not rotating the engine. This seems to be a situation where a service manual would come in handy. I'm a JD service technician and would have a manual handy for this repair, so it sort of amazes me every time I see a DIYer or weekend warrior attempting a relatively complex repair where proper procedure and assembly is rather crucial to a good end result without consulting the proper manual for the repair.

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G/MAN

04-23-2007 13:35:33




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to Jim/41_9N, 04-23-2007 10:42:53  
TDC #1 compression will have to occur after the intake valve has opened, the piston has travelled down on the intake stroke and has travelled back up on the compression stroke. Keep in mind that a piston in a 4-stroke engine has 2 TDC events for every cycle, or two crankshaft revolutions - one at the top of the compression stroke, and one at the top of the exhaust stroke. It sounds to me like you're at the TDC at the top of the exhaust stroke, because if the intake valve is just opening, the exhaust valve is just closing. I'm not familiar with that engine or injection pump, but there should almost certainly be some sort of internal timing mark for the injection pump itself, possibly behind a small cover and the mark may be on the rotor. Once you've established TDC #1 compression for the engine, maintain it simply by not rotating the engine. This seems to be a situation where a service manual would come in handy. I'm a JD service technician and would have a manual handy for this repair, so it sort of amazes me every time I see a DIYer or weekend warrior attempting a relatively complex repair where proper procedure and assembly is rather crucial to a good end result.

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Jim/41_9N

04-23-2007 14:56:35




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 Re: 1969 820 - Roosa Master Injection Pump in reply to G/MAN, 04-23-2007 13:35:33  
G/MAN,

I Understand. I am working on getting a manual. Just hoping for some advice. The actual removal of the pump has me a bit baffled.

Thanks,

Jim



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