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John Deere Tractors Discussion Forum
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H is running again

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1951g

06-12-2007 13:29:28




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This is in reply to previous post I submitted yesterday about my 1939 H not running. I changed the plugs and that cured everything. The frustrating part about this is I used a hotter plug, autolite 388s and had maybe a total of 1 hour run time on them. They didn't look fouled when I pulled them out but guess they were. Thanks again for the help from John T and Pat Browning.




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Mike M

06-13-2007 13:22:13




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-12-2007 13:29:28  
Try to keep your carb. settings on the lean side and when putting around run the engine up to rated speed.Close the shutters if you have them. Even on worn engines I have not had anywhere near the troubles others seem to have putting around.Even on the 50 I had that didn't have shutters and would shoot some blue I ran it for years with no problems. I run those 388's and I do have a few of the "dreaded" champions in some stuff too.

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P Browning

06-12-2007 15:15:20




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-12-2007 13:29:28  
Thanks for the come-back posting. That means a bunch!

I sure was in hope that you didn't tear into the tractor too deeply before trying the simple solution even if it did seem an unlikely cause.

Interesting thing about plugs -- I installed two new ones in my new tractor for engine run-up after overhaul. The engine started fine and run-up did okay, but the oil pressure needed to be adjusted downward. After shutting down & adjusting the oil pump, the engine would not fire on No. 1 side. Changing out the plug cured the anomoly and the old plug had no tell-tale sign of failure. Bad plugs -- it does happen!

Once again, thank you so very much for the report. Happy tractoring! Now -- enjoy the beast. (PatB)

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John T

06-12-2007 13:53:34




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-12-2007 13:29:28  
Congratulations, its fun to hear fedback. While 388 is a tad hotter then the spec 386 its a resistor plug I believe, might wanna try non resistor 3116 Autolites next time and wire core plug wires work better then resistive suppressor wires especially on a mag ignition.

John T



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1951g

06-12-2007 15:12:19




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 Re: H is running again in reply to John T, 06-12-2007 13:53:34  
Ok, I'll try the 3116s also. I am using the copper core plug wires currently. Thanks again for the help.



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F-I-T

06-12-2007 18:16:50




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-12-2007 15:12:19  
My claim to fame is that when Autolite was developing those very plugs, I was living in Fostoria, Ohio where the plugs were made. One of their design engineers who knew I had some old JD's came out about every two weeks for several months to try plugs in my '49 Gas "A" and my '41 "H". Some of them fouled like crazy, but after some electrode and tip length changes changes, they seemed to settle down, but it just shows you that they have had issues keeping them carbon free since this testing which was back in '81 or 82. Even in those development trials, if I would hook the "H" to a stone boat filled with some dirt to give it a load, it would run great on gas, and equally well on Kerosene. If I stopped pulling the load, whether on gas or kerosene, it would try to load up a bit even as we were just standing there for a few minutes. That "H" had a fresh bore, new pistons, good carburetor, and the works, so as an engine goes, it was right up to snuff. Just FYI, they have to be kept hot, and pulled a decent amount from time to time just to keep them clear. Also keep a fresh set of plugs nearby if you go to a show or on a ride. That's why I'm retrofitting a pto to my "H" project so that I can park it on the dyno for frequent exercizing and to minimize the carbon deposits. I'm anxious to see how that affects its overall drivability. I might even have some of those old trial plugs in a box somewhere.

Frank

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Duane Larson

06-12-2007 21:33:43




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 Re: H is running again in reply to F-I-T, 06-12-2007 18:16:50  
Hi Frank,
If you run into some of those trial plugs I sure would be interested in seeing one, being a plug collector and all. There is a nice, detailed history of Autolite at Link



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F-I-T

06-13-2007 07:12:51




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 Re: H is running again in reply to Duane Larson, 06-12-2007 21:33:43  
Duane:

I thought of you when I typed that about those old plugs. I would not hold out much hope, but if I do find any, I will sure let you know. As I recall, and that was some time back, they were in the standard steel shell and the ware looked standard, but instead of a Motocraft or Autolite logo, they were stamped with just a number like "ENG 50-334", which probably referred back to a book of tests that would reeference a print that would detail the plug. The lab had their own kilns and Dennison presses, even a small National cold header, so that they could manufacture a plug complete. They even tried the platinum tip in these large plugs to inhibit fouling, though it either did not pan out, or it wasn't cost effective and would have pushed the price too high. I remember that this was the time frame when the "Splitfire" plug was under develo[ment, and Fostoria made those as well. With old Henry as my neighbor, I never was at a loss for spark plugs. The electrode was actually split on a wire EDM then spread, then welded onto the shell.

The 8 or so lines at Fostoria could produce a whale of a lot of plugs in a day. Running three shifts, I think the output was in excess of 300,000 units, counting oxygen senors and other things.

Frank

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John T

06-12-2007 19:15:51




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 Re: H is running again in reply to F-I-T, 06-12-2007 18:16:50  
Frank, As we have both proclaimed for years, if we ever used them under a half way decent load and kept the temp up over 180 as they were designed for there wouldnt be near as much carbon fouling as we get in out light duty and parade tractors but I think todays gas may also have something to do with it. Duane has commented on the quality and porosity (spelling??) of the ceramic and insulation of todays plugs and how it is inferior to what they used in the thirties and he prefers the old stock take apart plugs that can be cleaned n has used a set for years in his GP I believe. I change my plugs alllll ll the time so I dont get embarrassed at a show or parade.

I guess its a combination of todays gas,,,,, ,,the plugs insulation isnt as smooth allowing carbon to stick to it,,,,, ,,,,,the low operatign temperatures,,,,, ,,,,the idle n no load operation and I dont really see much of a cure unless we load them down as you mentioned.

I enjoyed your dissertation about all your tractors, youre gettin windy as us lawyers lol

John T

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F-I-T

06-12-2007 19:28:41




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 Re: H is running again in reply to John T, 06-12-2007 19:15:51  
Two problems generally plague these old all-fuelers: good engines are not run hot enough, long enough, often enough, and that can lead to carbon deposits and plug fouling, and poor, weak engines just plain foul plugs. Most folks blame the gasoline, but I don't buy that. Weak,poor, soft engines always did start poor, run poor, and foul plugs. When you really get down and ask someone how they restored their engine, by now, 60 years after the fact, if it didn't include a re-bore/new pistons/valve grind/valve guides, they were either kidding themselves, or they started with a real cream puff. Most times the engine having problems just is not as sharp as it could be, and so it doesn't react like the one they are reading about in the operators manual.

The interesting thing about the ceramic, or as they call it in the factory, "ware", as in earthenware, that Autolite uses. Most of the clay comes from a quarry near Carey, Ohio and it has since the Autlite plant there was opened in the early 20's. If there is any difference in the quality of that ceramic today, it has to be in the binder. I watched many, many thousands of those ceramics come out of their furnaces on the various plant tours I had there. My neighbor retired from there, and he was forever taking me over on tours and through the labs. I also knew many of the engineers through the community. I have heard from my son's F-I-L who also retired from that plant that it is used mostly today to build specialty plugs, which proably includes these small batch plugs.

They used to make knife sharpeners shaped like a sparkplug insulator, but the lower ceramic was not glazed so while it was fired and hard, it was semi-rough. Made for a great knife hone!

Frank

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1951g

06-13-2007 09:21:31




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 Re: H is running again in reply to F-I-T, 06-12-2007 19:28:41  
Yes, I'll have to belt it up or pull something around occasionally since it's just a parade tractor. Maybe I can pull the A or G around with them in neutral and plug wires disconnected on them. That ought to give it somewhat of a load. Thanks again for everyone's help.



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F-I-T

06-13-2007 10:21:21




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-13-2007 09:21:31  
That is a good idea. It's similar to the field dynamometers that Deere used in the old days using an 80 or 820 as the load bed. Of course they instrumented those and they reversed the rear tires of the pulled vehicle so they had better traction in the pulled mode, then they closed down the exhaust with a gate valve on the manifold to get an adjustable load. Lots of options with a little ingenuity.

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1951g

06-13-2007 12:20:11




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 Re: H is running again in reply to F-I-T, 06-13-2007 10:21:21  
Another good idea. I might also put mine in high gear and clutch engaged with plug wires removed to get a little more resistance. You and others always have some good and helpful information posted on this website. Thanks again for all of the information. Are you planning on going to EXPO next week in Iowa? I'm going for the first time and am just trying to meet some of you out here on this website. My wife, son, and I are bringing a 1935 A.

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F-I-T

06-13-2007 12:43:25




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 Re: H is running again in reply to 1951g, 06-13-2007 12:20:11  
Oh, I'd love to go, as I have not attended the Iowa shindig for several years. I schedule it every time, but at the last moment, my schedule gets in the way. I wish it ran Fri/Sat/Sun instead of Thurs/Fri/Sat. Same for the NY Expo. It makes it hard for me to fly in and see any of the show.

Frank



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1951g

06-13-2007 13:54:46




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 Re: H is running again in reply to F-I-T, 06-13-2007 12:43:25  
Yeah, know what you mean. I had to plan this vacation time almost a year out in order to get the time off from work.



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