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4020 Load Control seals

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Alan in KS

07-31-2007 13:55:20

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When I last replaced the seals on my 1965 4020 synchro, once I had the machine in D with the console lever in the fully lowered position, the load control shaft came out easily, and reinserted just as easily. However, the 3 point would not raise with the load setting in either L or L/D subsequently, only in D. I now have to replace seals again after two years, made sure it was in D and lowered, and the shaft won't budge. Do any of you guys have any advice?

Cheers - Alan

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Alan in KS

08-01-2007 10:03:51

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

Thank you for the input, guys. I have bought bushings for the transmission case but not for the draft yoke, so I"ll get those too. I think the input about taking off the access plate at the back might also help me from fumbling around in the dark.
Thank you all.
Cheers - Alan

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nickg

08-01-2007 08:30:48

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

I have a 67 4020 and had a 66. Did this project about 2 years ago.It was easier to have arms down but i just took mine off.I replaced everything with new oem parts except the seals. Instead I replaced the seal with a steel bushing that has an o-ring in the middle which I bought from deere and all the mechanics said that the bushing is a lot better than a seal.Before I learned about the o-ring bushing and just uesd the oem seal on my 66 about evey 2 years I was replacing that seal. even after replacing everything new the 1st time.

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G/MAN

08-01-2007 13:32:42

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to nickg, 08-01-2007 08:30:48

The reason they sometimes last longer is because they defeat the purpose of the original design, and don't allow the shaft to flex nearly as much as the stock bushings do, which is what allows the load and depth system to work as designed. The old seals use an outer seal cup and a rubber bellows supporting the sealing ring that the shaft slides through. The rubber bellows is there to allow the flexing of the shaft between the two bushings. The aftermarkt band-aid seals do nothing of the sort and negatively affect the system. But since these tractors are old and are rarely used for what they were designed for these days - carrying mounted plows, etc., most guys neither understand how the L&D system works or ever monkey with it. Not something you really need with a shredder or blade, but if you pull a plow and want the system to work as designed, you'd better have the factory parts installed.

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Mike M

08-02-2007 10:43:52

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-01-2007 13:32:42

Seems to be alot of rumors and confusin about those bushings.

Those aftermarket bushings with the o-rings are used in place of the JD bushings in the tranny case , BUT you still NEED to install the JD outer seals too. That o-ring is not going to hamper the shaft from flexing as it is designed to do as the bushings are the fulcrum either way. They just add the extra sealing power of an o-ring. My JD dealer uses them and even stocks them. They are the ones that told me about them.

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Doug in IL

08-01-2007 15:07:28

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-01-2007 13:32:42

Do you really think that those 2 little o-rings are holding that shaft tight enough it can't flex with thousands of pounds of draft being applied to it? In my opinion, the oring bushings are the only way to go. I've got tractors around here that have had them in for 15 years and don't leak a drop.

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G/MAN

08-02-2007 07:30:13

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Doug in IL, 08-01-2007 15:07:28

I sure do, because it's not the o-rings that are supporting the shaft, it's the seal housing the o-rings are contained in, and those aftermarket "seals" have a smaller I.D. than the bushing does, therefore it won't flex like it should. The original bushings are tapered, the the larger ends of the bores need to go together so the shaft can flex. Which is exactly why Deere had to use a seal with so much "give". "Give" that the aftermarket band-aids don't have because they replace the rubber bellows with a solid insert with an o-ring. And we're not talking about the shaft flexing half an inch, we're talking about it flexing thousands of an inch. As I said, most guys don't understand the design or how it works, and you may be one of them.

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Doug in IL

08-02-2007 16:55:24

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-02-2007 07:30:13

Well, I can see who doesn't understand and it's not me. The bushings I installed are the genuine, internally tapered, John Deere bushings straight from Mother Deere. My Deere dealer takes them from his parts stock and sends them out to have the oring grooves machined into them. The taper is still there. I repeat. There is no way that those small orings are going to stop that shaft from flexing!

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Mike M

08-02-2007 10:55:08

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-02-2007 07:30:13

See my post above, as it may help you understand how these work since you don't use them.

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G/MAN

08-02-2007 13:28:35

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 08-02-2007 10:55:08

I've used them, but it's been a long time. And we also stock them, but have better luck with the correct parts than band-aided junk. As was said, the stock bushings aren't really wide enough for the job, and installing that aftermarket junk just makes it worse.

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Mike M

08-02-2007 15:09:42

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-02-2007 13:28:35

We can agree to disagree then. You call them "band-aided junk"

Well I had alot more harsher words years ago for John Deeres parts when I installed a new shaft and seals and maybe bushings ? and refilled it up and next morning without doing any work it was seaping ! And I was very carefull to not tear them up and had everything clean. I was not real happy ! That is when my dealer turned me onto those aftermarket bushings with the added protection from leaks with the o-ring. This was many many years ago and tractor has a 115 blade on it and has done work and still not a seap. Since then any others I did got that band-aided junk. LOL

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G/MAN

08-02-2007 15:40:41

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 08-02-2007 15:09:42

I've never had one leak, and I've done several tractors over the years, which is why I know there is nothing wrong with the original parts when properly installed. More power to you and the aftermarket seals - I could care less what you use. But when people come on here and start crowing about how those aftermarket units are a "gotta have it" part and God's gift to a load shaft, that's bull, pure and simple. We've had aftermarket seals leak. The fact of that matter is that it's possible to do everything "right" when using either type and have a leak when you're done. That's the way it goes when you're turning wrenches. It's also fairly ridiculous to remove the OEM bushings unless they're worn enough to warrant it, as that can lead to leaks all by itself when the bores get stretched, which is why they make oversize bushings. Deere built several hundred thousand New Gens with those parts and apparently never had any major issues, as they were never updated until the aftermarket decided it was necessary to do so, and Deere has never had a problem with updating or improving a design should the need arise. I believe it's also worth mentioning that a 115 blade hardly puts enough draft on the shaft to matter. The load and depth system is there to raise a mounted implement when there is sufficient draft to actually begin to slow the tractor down and cause wheel slip at FIELD speeds, i.e. 5 mph or less - hitting a tough spot with a plow, etc. As I said yesterday, blades and shredders hardly tax the hitch and load/depth system at all, and also as I said, I seriously doubt the average New Gen even gets the adjustment lever moved. Does yours??

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Mike M

08-02-2007 18:59:23

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-02-2007 15:40:41

ROFLMAO !!!

A 115 blade can stop a 4020 gas with tires fully loaded and a 158 loader in it's tracks ! You can cut ditches with these things in case you didn't know. This same 4020 with the front loader cutting fairly solid shale out in 5th gear leaving black marks on the hard shale behind left the operator of a 450 case dozer watch in amasement. I was digging out as much as he could. But I also do realize this is on occasion and not an all day everyday event. But it don't just sit still.

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G/MAN

08-03-2007 07:29:22

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 08-02-2007 18:59:23

Do you make a habit out of stopping the tractor with the blade? I doubt it, as most guys don't. Dig a lot of ditches with it? I doubt that either. There's a big difference between what something can do and what someone uses it to do. You can build terraces with a motor grader - most guys use dozers. I happened to think of something regarding those seals. If those o-rings do such a fine job of sealing, why are the factory seals still used outside of them???

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Mike M

08-03-2007 07:53:57

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-03-2007 07:29:22

I just got back from JDPARTS and it seems like even JD started using o-rings in the bushings on 4020's starting around 1971 from serial number 250001 and up.

VERY INTERESTING ?????

I'd sure like to know what year that aftermarket co. starting makeing his ??? Did he kinda copy Deere or did Deere kinda copy him ????

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G/MAN

08-03-2007 13:39:04

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 08-03-2007 07:53:57

Then obviously you also noticed that the entire tranmission case itself was also changed. Right? Meaning that they recognized the defficiencies of the ealier seal AND narrow bushing design, and changed the whole works at once. A change that installing the aftermarket seals in an earlier tractor cannot achieve and an improvement they cannot make. They used the o-ring bushing through 40-series production. Guess what. Those later tractors can and will leak too. Been into more than a few of those, also. And subsequently Deere used several more designs after that, finally ending up with a bolt-in seal/bushing design by the end of small-frame 55-series production that ended up being the best design by far. And guess what. Those can and do leak also. So apparently those o-rings weren't the ultimate answer either. The large-frame 40- thru 60-series tractors use an entirely different setup with a huge shaft, needle bearins and lip seals and guess what, they leak too. Rarely, but they do - I fixed leaking load shaft seals in 4 large-frame tractors last winter alone. You're beating a dead horse trying to convince me that the aftermarket parts are the magic leak preventer, because I've been there and done that on every series and model of Deere row-crop tractor to come out of Waterloo from the 3010 through the 8530, and quite a few of the two-bangers and 4wds to boot, so I'm pretty aware of Deere's various faults and how effective various fixes are. I told you that you're more than welcome to use them if they make you happy. I'm not telling you your business, do don't try to tell me mine.

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another thing

08-02-2007 19:39:45

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 08-02-2007 18:59:23

Those blades are around 1000 lbs hanging back there bang clangling around as you drive.That sway block design does not remove all the sway.This all bangs away at that load shaft as it carries it all.

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Alan in KS

08-01-2007 04:10:41

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

I thought the 3 point had to be in the fully lowered position, not fully up? I have a new shaft and bushings, but when I replaced the seals last time I did not know to shim between the yoke and transmission casing. I subsequently learned that from other posts on this forum.

That old adage of "you don't know what you don't know" certainly holds true with me, so I appreciate the input. Thank you.

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Mike M

08-01-2007 04:36:37

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 08-01-2007 04:10:41

I am a firm beliver in "you don't know what you don't know"

But then the LAW has it's own phrase "ignorance of the law is no excuse" I say it is the ONLY excuse ? They got so many laws how can anyone keep up ?

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bunghammer

07-31-2007 18:42:52

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

[quote="Alan in KS"](quoted from post at 13:55:20 07/31/07) When I last replaced the seals on my 1965 4020 synchro, once I had the machine in D with the console lever in the fully lowered position, the load control shaft came out easily, and reinserted just as easily. However, the 3 point would not raise with the load setting in either L or L/D subsequently, only in D. I now have to replace seals again after two years, made sure it was in D and lowered, and the shaft won't budge. Do any of you guys have any advice?

Cheers - Alan[/quote Before you pull the shaft out always make sure the three point is all the way up, also during installation. You can hit the arm and throw of all your adjustments. When ever you replace the seals you should also replace the bushings and shaft because more than likely what caused your seals to leak. B. C.

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Mike M

07-31-2007 17:51:27

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

This time make sure you get the aftermarket bushings with a seal in them. Then use a new shaft ( maybe not if yours was only 2 yrs old )JD outer seals and the JD shim kit. I'd also replace all the bushings in the yoke to tighten it all up.

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G/MAN

08-01-2007 07:29:32

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Mike M, 07-31-2007 17:51:27

We've actually had more trouble with the aftermarket seals leaking than the originals. The aftermarket ones are band-aids meant to make up for improper assembly or reusing junk parts. Doing the job right with the original parts, including replacing the pin and bushing at the front of the drawbar support and any rear bushings that are worn will result in a long-lasting repair.

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DONMYEIL

08-01-2007 08:19:47

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to G/MAN, 08-01-2007 07:29:32

G-man, your right on!! Those original Deere bushings are too narrow as they are and they dont need a grove cut in them to wear even faster. This is one area you cant cut corners. Do as G-man recomends and you will be good to go.

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G/MAN

07-31-2007 15:30:13

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Re: 4020 Load Control seals in reply to Alan in KS, 07-31-2007 13:55:20

Just had a 3020 apart with a similar deal. Got the old shaft out, but when I went to install the new one, the arm it reacts against was in the way and wouldn't let it go in straight. I had to remove the adjustment plug on the rear of the tractor, turn the adjusting screw to get the arm lined up, install the shaft and readjust the linkage.

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