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Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620

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LittleD

11-23-2007 10:02:47




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Going thru the power steering on my late 1958 JD 620.

Rebuilt the pump and it checks out good with a gage at 1300 + PSI

Checked the oil leakage past the steering vanes and have less than a quart in 60 sec.

New steering worm gear with no binding.

Took apart the actuating sleeve assembly and checked all parts for wear and polished out any imperfections.

Put in fresh JD power steering oil.

Takes extra effort to turn right or left right while driving and will not turn wheels if they are in plowed ground.

I have the SM 2050 CD and The (I&T) manual.

Do I not have it adjusted correctly ??

What are your thoughts?

Priced new cam and worm shaft from JD at $240 and don't want to throw new parts at it if it's just out of adjustment. Thanks,Rich

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LittleD

11-25-2007 05:04:43




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Just an update on the JD 620 power steering rebuild.

Yesterday took the steering worm and valve housing assembly off the tractor again. Checked each part with a fine tooth comb...even put my glasses on..... polished any imperfections on each part and hand fit and tried each piece. Then while off the tractor...I set the clearances very close to specs. Had nice movement each way of the valve actuating sleeve.Feeling pretty good about the situation I put the unit back on the tractor and gave it an actual running test. To my suprise no noticable improvement.

On to plan "B"...I've got the Pedestal, Spindle and cylinder all unhooked and the bolts are out ready for the chain hoist. It will be interesting as to what I find wrong with the pedestal. I wanted this tractor for a winter project....I guess I got one. Thanks for everyones help and suggestions, Rich

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Tom43

11-24-2007 18:46:55




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Dear Little D,
Try loosening the nut on the internal spring so that you get good snap action on the helix and pins. You must get good back and forth movement to open the valve fully. Let us know what happens.



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LittleD

11-23-2007 18:35:20




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Mike,

Steers on concrete...but hard ! No front weights or loader.

My plan is to really set the actuating sleeve up perfectly and check that off the list of problems.

I know you are right about taking the pedestal and vane cylinder a part and replacing the wear parts.....after 50 years of hard work it should be done. Half the job is just getting started and I'll have the satisfaction of it being done right. A lighter wallet..but satisfaction.

Thanks, Rich

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Mike M

11-24-2007 07:53:23




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 18:35:20  
Well keep at it as something is not right and it can do better.



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Mike M

11-24-2007 07:58:39




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 one more thing in reply to Mike M, 11-24-2007 07:53:23  
You mentioned flow control valve opened ? and still no flutter. That flow control screw is to be turned in (clockwise) to increase flow if I remember right. Is this what you meant ?



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LittleD

11-23-2007 13:34:44




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Frank,

I have the later version.... through the front worm tension adjustment parts.

Flow control is opened quite a bit and no flutter at all.

Valve arm/lever is firmly attached to steering valve...and valve moves smoothly.

Hope to get to work on it again Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks, Rich



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LittleD

11-23-2007 12:10:20




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Mike,

From the look of the oil that was in it...he didn't do anything with the vane seals---O-rings etc. Would have been fresher and cleaner if he did.

So you are saying my vane seal leak test may not completely tell the condition of the vane motor area and could be leaking past the shaft.

Pump gears and center looked good....took it to a machine shop to have seals pressed in and they thought so too. Could I have great pressure with... low flow...is that possible?

Tested with engine wide open while trying to turn in plowed ground.

Thanks, Rich

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Mike M

11-23-2007 17:11:13




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 12:10:20  
I know nothing of your leak test one way or the other , BUT if you were to take it apart you might be surprised at how bad those seals and vanes look. All of the ones I have had apart were very worn down. A few had broken stop pins (may not be right term) inside of them. You should be able to work that worm and actuating sleeve the same both directions with no binding and no play. Sounds like you are on the right track doing this apart from the assembly. With the later "improved" design I think you will find that by bad design it will travel more one way than the other. I think this is what cracks the one corner off the worm where the pin goes. I don't see where the "improved" was an improvement. And on that pump housing you have to use a micrometer to determine the wear in them. And yes you can get good pressure and weak flow and the warmer it gets the worse it gets. I don't know about turning in plowed ground ? you can get alot of variables there too ? Weight on frt. end ? loader on tractor ? one tire in a dead furrow ? This could overload it and cause it to bypass to relief. How does it steer on say concrete ? hard packed driveway ?

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LittleD

11-23-2007 11:50:16




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Frank,

When I have the cam and worm shaft cam together (out of the actuating sleeve) the cam action works pretty smooth....no hang ups either way.

The hardened dowel pins are new.

When I put the assembly together but not on the tractor it seems to move more distance and easier in one direction....is that adjustment error?? or bad part??

As you say it looks like the problem is in the valve body area....you've given me the incentive to keep working on that area before looking elsewhere.

The local Deere mechanics have no experience with the old steering systems so you and Mike are a great source for information, Thanks Rich

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F-I-T

11-23-2007 12:29:39




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 11:50:16  
third party image

I don't have my I&T handy for the later (-20 series black dash upgraded) worm area, and my SM2050 is an "original" which shows only the helix screw type used on the original design on the numbered series, so I can't refer you to the exact page until I get those out. Most of the numbered tractors by now have been upgraded to the adjustable through-the-front-of-the-worm tension adjustment that came out on the -20's, but yours might not. See if you can determine from the parts book which style that you have. In your parts catalog PC-528, Page 50-7, Item 18 and 19, the adjustment bushing and the thru-socket set screw are present in the upgraded style. It's important that we know. That is the check that you need to set using a dial indicator if you really want it to be right.

With the actuator/cam assembly in your hand, it should index (that is up the hill of the cam and down the hill of the cam) to the left and to the right with equal ease. Also, make sure that your steering wheel shaft forward is free enough in the bushing to slide forward and aft a small amount easily as this movement is required so that the cam can deflect and push the lever arm forward or back when attached to the valve poppet, and make the valve slide smoothly.

I don't think that you have a pump issue or you would not be getting that pressure, and I don't think that you have a vane seal issue because you have a fairly low leakage rate.

You can increase the flow up to the point of flutter and see if that makes any difference, and put it back if it does not, but I still think that you are not getting proper fore and aft movement of the valve body, which means that you get no fluid flowing into the cylinder to aid in turning. What you describe sounds just like the valve is stuck, or maybe the lever is loose, or some other wear point has caused more play than the cam face can equal in deflection distance.

Frank

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LittleD

11-23-2007 11:14:52




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
Mike,

I purchased this tractor recently for a restoration project this winter. Previous owner started restoration and ran into finacial problems and had to sell a few things.

He had started on the steering rebuild and said it was finished and needed minor adjustment and would work after I rebuilt the power steering pump. I have taken everything apart and cleaned and inspected each piece.

Thanks, Rich

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Mike M

11-23-2007 11:50:28




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 11:14:52  
I wonder if he put in new vane seals and the o-rings that seal the steering shaft ? Those shafts get some pretty good grooves worn in them too from the o-rings. I have a theroy that some of the oil pressure may actually be leaking past the o-ring back into the reservior on some of these tractors. How worn were the pump gears and center section ? were they within specs. ? I have had to replace several of the center housing sections due to wear. when it won't turn is the engine running at idle or fast idle (wide open) ?

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Mike M

11-23-2007 10:46:03




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
What was the original problem you tore it down for ?



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F-I-T

11-23-2007 10:38:06




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 Re: Power Steering Question, late 1958 JD 620 in reply to LittleD, 11-23-2007 10:02:47  
If the cam face/pins, and actuator cam form face do not have a pronounced "flat" spot, meaning there is no discrete "notch" where the pins have wallowed the cam faces for years (this can lead to the pins catching and not sliding up an down the cam face), then I would look into the actual sliding poppet valve body hanging up. One fellow on here a few months ago found a piece of old valve spring that had made its way into the bore, hanging the valve.

As a point of background, when you exert more torque on the steering wheel than the spring-loaded cam can withstand, the wheel begins to turn, and the pins slide up the angled cam face. This moves the toggle for or aft, which pushes or pulls on the valve body. This movement translates into exposure of the fluid posts which route pressure to one or the other side of the hydraulic cylinder, aiding to move the wheels. If the pins don't slide on the cam face, or the valve body is sticking, the valve will not displace and the wheels will get no assist. One other problem comes from a steering wheel shaft that is binding in the bushing up at the instrument panel as the shaft has to be able to move in and out ever so slightly so that the cams can displace for and aft, and hence move the valve body. Start at the wheel end, make sure it is free and correct, then check the worm end play inner spring setting. This is the slight play (like .0015") that is set between the cams/pins/actuator cam using the internal spring. Look that over to make sure things are set correctly, not too tight, or the bingding might keep the cams, etc. from sliding and working to deflect the actuator valve. Unless you have a huge divot in the cam faces to the point where the pins hang up when attempting to slide, I am betting that you have a valve hanging up. OR, before you try all of this, you could try increasing the fluid flow rate, but since you have enough pressure and volume to generate a measurable leak down past the seals, I still think you have a valve body sticking issue.

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