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JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2

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LittleD

11-29-2007 14:57:53




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Finished the rebuild of the JD 620 steering pedestal today. Soaked the Vane seals in hot water and they slipped onto the steering vanes very easy. All new seals and O-rings....went together real good. Added new JD power steering oil and fired up the tractor for a test run. Steering worked but not much better than before.

Have gone thru each part of the steering system.

Mike M said I could have good pressure from the steering pump but LOW flow..... .I think he's right !! I have the flow control adjusted all the way in and it doesn't apear to have enough flow.

Mike M or F-I-T what are the specs for the pump ?? I'm going to take it apart and check to see if it is within the specifications.

I've got all winter to get this right.

Thanks, Rich

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Mike M

11-29-2007 18:55:30




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-29-2007 14:57:53  
The specs. you seek are in SM-2050 you are braver than me if you tackled that steering without one. Even though the new seals didn't help much don't you feel better knowing they are in there and seeing the wear on the old ones ? Now when you start it up cold do the wheels drift to one side ? and at full throttle on the garage floor can you steer it pretty easy with one hand ? does it steer good at full throttle cold but when warm at idle barely steer ? Someone else mentioned the spring on the cams. I think this tension is to give you feel to the steering and if too tight may make the steering wheel feel too tight.

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LittleD

11-29-2007 19:41:29




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to Mike M, 11-29-2007 18:55:30  
Mike,

I have the SM-2050 CD..... ..... ..you're right the spec's were in there after the chapters for the Grove and Orchard tractors.....sometimes the printed manuals are easier to work with.
Definitely glad I rebuilt the steering pedestal....good feeling knowing all the seals and O-rings are new and everything cleaned up....oil is nice and fresh looking. And I got to see what it looked like in there!

When I start it up cold it does NOT drift to one side.
On the garage floor...full trottle...I can turn with one hand....some effort. My JD 520 with a 4 piece weight set on front steers much easier in same test.
Yes it steers better at full trottle cold and when warm at idle it barely steers.

Thanks again, Rich

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Mike M

11-30-2007 04:31:24




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-29-2007 19:41:29  
It may be as good as it is going to get ? System likely has stuff worn out and it can't keep up. If your pump is really worn out of spec.OD of gears and ID of housing thus giving you alot more clearance around the gears in the housing for oil to bypass some gains MAY be made with new parts here. I have also used a little trick on some used tractors to help them steer better. I have taken a carbide drill bit in the lathe and opened up the hole in the end of the flow control valve as this is where the oil actually goes through. I'd have to see what size I used ? I keep an extra one laying around just to try. Some it actually helps.

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F-I-T

11-29-2007 16:25:31




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-29-2007 14:57:53  
Could you possibly have a piece of old gasket or a washer or a piece of seal that has washed downstream from the pump and is obstructing the flow of oil from the pump to the cylinder? I am on the road so I don't have any info as to the pump flow rate, and even so, how will you check that? Any pump can exhibit good pressure, but have a low flow. If you weld an output line shut and drill a small orifice hole (there are a couple of restrictor orifices in those hard lines on the pedestal...maybe check that one or both are not occluded) the pump will push only a small amount of oil, so when nothing is moving, the pressure will look high, but the real flow is a dribble. Once you call on the cylinder to operate by turning the wheel against a load, the cams move up the ramp, the actuator lever is deflected, the poppet moves for or aft, the ports open and oil can move down the lines to the cylinder, the pressure would fall to nil as there is not enough flow to fill the need. Maybe put your pressure gauge in a tee on the pressure (high side) of the pump, run the engine, observe good pressure, then turn the wheel. I would think when you actuate the poppet valve, the pressure should fall a bit once the poppet moves and oil flows to fill the cylinder cavity, which is ever expanding as the pedestal shaft tried to rotate. If the pressure falls dramatically, you may have a restriction in the supply line somewhere, as the pump is dumping all the supply that it has in one push, with no oil coming in to refill the pump (cavitation). If the pressure stays the same and you have no assist, then the oil is not moving to the cylinder, and I say that the actuator valve is not moving sufficiently, or the flow is restricted to the pedestal via the hard lines. Since I don't have a tractor in front of me to reference, could you loosen the actuator valve body and tip it away from the worm housing, and push/pull on the actuator valve lever and prove that when the actuator valve moves that oil is going to the cylinder? Stay away from the wheels when you do this. I'm not sure that this is even possible. Just trying to brainstorm.

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LittleD

11-29-2007 18:39:07




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to F-I-T, 11-29-2007 16:25:31  
Frank,

I have the Pressure gauge/tee set up used to check the pump pressure earlier and will test as you suggested before removing the pump.....should be an easy test to try and narrow down the problem.
Thanks for all your brainstorming.
Funny thing I'm actually enjoying this challenge....always wanted to know the workings of the power steering system.....with all you experienced people helping...it will work how it was designed to. Thanks, Rich

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71INT

11-29-2007 16:23:01




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-29-2007 14:57:53  
Have been following your posts. It seems that your spool valve is not opening as it should due to an adjustment. Probably the helix-since you have the improved version provided all end-play adjustments are correct. To check this-Bunp the valve housing to the extreem fore and aft with the tractor running. If the wheels move right and left this is the problem.If this is true contact me and I will try to explain how I make that adjustment. Dave

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LittleD

11-30-2007 06:07:06




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to 71INT, 11-29-2007 16:23:01  
Dave,

Just finished the test this morning. Upon first start up with cold oil the steering worked pretty good at high or low engine speed...thought to myself I could live with this.
Took the tractor down the lane and back to warm it up a little....now with warm oil and high engine speed it would turn left and right BUT with much effort and some binding and at low engine speed it would not turn at all.
Now at low engine speed I started the test by bumping the valve housing.
With the wheels facing left I tapped the valve housing forward and the wheels turned completely right with ease.
Now I tapped the valve housing rearward and the wheels made a small attempt to turn but didn't ...at this point I used the steering wheel to turn left..... using the steering wheel it turned left with ease!!
So now I'm thinking my pump is OK.
Seems as if it is an adjustment problem in the actuating area.
Point me in the right direction....this looks promising. Thanks, Rich

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F-I-T

11-30-2007 09:27:16




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-30-2007 06:07:06  
That's why I said that part about the actuator cam and pins not moving the actuator valve poppet completely.

Now, remember that the power steering does not assist until you meet a resistance to turning that makes you over come the spring load of the cams to pins to face. For example, if you jack the front end off the ground, there is basically no resistance, so when you turn the steering wheel, all you have to turn is the shaft, then the worm, then the vertical shaft, with wheels attached. You have manual steering onl since your force required to tunr the wheel is less than the force to slip the spring-loaded cam joint. If you meet a resistance, like the wheels in a furrow, you have to turn the steering wheel harder, which turns the shaft, but the spring loaded cam cannot turn the wheels, so the steering shaft turns while the wheels stay stationary (if not for an instant), the cam slips, the pins ride up the face, push on the actuator valve lever, oil flows, the cylinder gets a boost, and the wheels turn until they reach the position that you were calling for, and everything goes to the point of equilibrium, no oil flowing into the cylinder. I think you have more spring load resistance in the cam right now than you can generate by turning the wheels on the surfaces that you have been testing on. If you turn the wheels extreme left or right, then relax the grip on the wheel, then force the steering wheel again in that direction, with the wheels against that stop, which is the ultimate in resistance, you should be able to feel if the steering shaft is moving but the wheels stay extreme. Since the wheels cannot turn any further, you should be able to feel and see if the steering shaft rotates a bit as it slips up the cam. Judge how hard you have to force it to make go up or down that cam face. That's your culprit I bet. So maybe for a test, loosen that spring load up quite a bit and see if it tracks up and down that cam easily, and if it does the steering should work. Then you'll just have to try to bring that spring pressure up to a point where the steering is sensitive and responsive, but not sloppy or slow. You can try to get a feel for that distance and force that it takes withthe engine off as well. Turn the wheel, no assist because the pump is n ot turning, so you know it is all on your steering wheel. You should be able to feel and judge the force that it is taking to side up that cam. And then go try that on your "good" tractor. That should be a good comparison test.

I sure would like to hear about anyone's other solutions. It is, after all, a discussion board, and everyone could benefit from a new fix printed here. I hope you guys will elaborate in public for the benefit of all. I know typing this stuff is a pain, but please try. A telephone call might fix this one time occurrence, but once you guys take it off line, there's no way for the rest of us to stay current, and no real reason to try. We'd probably be suggesting that you re-plow ground that you had already covered privately.

Good luck Rich, either way.

Frank

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71INT

11-30-2007 07:27:47




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-30-2007 06:07:06  
Rich I know these messages help everyone but I would like to discuss this with you on the telephone for better clairity. My e-mail is open. Please e-mail your phone no. or I will send you my phone no. if I can have e-mail address. Dave



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LittleD

11-29-2007 18:21:01




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to 71INT, 11-29-2007 16:23:01  
Dave,

I will do the test you suggested in the morning.
While adjusting for effort required in each direction I tapped the housing slightly forward and back ( Just the very slightest tap would change direction).
Tomorrow I will tap and move it more and see if the wheels will turn fully left and right.
I'm quite sure making an adjustment will be easier than taking the pump back off.
I'll post back after the test. Thanks, Rich

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Tom43

11-29-2007 17:22:39




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to 71INT, 11-29-2007 16:23:01  
Dear LittleD,
With the oil seal housing removed and the tractor off, the cams should separate fairly easily by hand giving full movement to the steering valve arm. When you let go it should snap back to neutral position. Also, the steering valve should move effortlessly by hand. I have seen several where the centering spring is too tight. Have you checked this? I like Dave's idea about moving the valve housing and seeing if the wheels move.

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LittleD

11-29-2007 18:00:40




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to Tom43, 11-29-2007 17:22:39  
Tom,
Earlier in this rebuild the actuating sleeve/steering valve did hang up some what....but I have since had it apart and polished any nicks and burrs etc. and set it up on the bench. I feel it"s working very nice....has good movement both ways. Also while attached to the steering wheel and turned by the operator the sleeve has good movement.
Keep the suggestions coming. Thanks, Rich



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Tom43

11-30-2007 09:03:04




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 Re: JD 620 Power Steering UPDATE # 2 in reply to LittleD, 11-29-2007 18:00:40  
Dear LitleD,
Are your dowel pins in the actuating sleeve worn? They must be perfectly round. Is the interior of the actuating sleeve smooth? It can be lightly honed with a brake cylinder hone. Have you tried loosening the nut on the cam spring? It should open easily by hand with the spring just tight enough to return the cams to neutral position when you release your hands. If the spring is too tight the valve never opens fully to provide full flow to the vanes. Have you checked the backlash between the worm and the gear. You might try another gasket.
I cant stress enough the adjustment of the spring. The cam must open easily by hand(not by using the steering wheel). Let us know what you find. I admire your perseverance.

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