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Diesel Engine Oil

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GentleBen

12-21-2007 12:38:44




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I'm restoring a John Deere 730 diesel. It will only be used for tractor drives and shows and will not be used for anykind of hard work. My question is, do I need to use the the 15w40 Diesel engine oil or will the 10w 40 gasoline engine oil be ok ? The diesel oil is about twice the price of the gas engine oil ant our local Farm&Fleet store....Thank You...Ben




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jdemaris

12-22-2007 09:19:26




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
If you really care about it, you need to do some reading. Rotella T no longer has the anti-wear additives your engine needs. I've used Rotella T for many years - but no more except for some of the old stock I can find. If you buy the new Rotella T that says "triple protection", then it does not have the needed anti-wear additives. Shell took out the additives to meet the newer 2008 requirements of emission systems in certain diesels. As far as I know, Deere kept the additives in their Plus 50 oils.

Also, Deere has always advised to avoid multi-viscostiy oils in diesels UNLESS they are sythnetic. That because the polymers in petroleum based multi-visc oils foul piston rings. That's one reasons why Detroit Diesel never allowed it in the two-stroke diesels. For years, Deere recommended straight grade oils in disesels, but then decided it's too risky with cold starts. If you start and engine, and temps are below the pour or pump point of the oil, you're screwed. We even had a few engines get ruined from cold-starts with Deere 15W-40 at temps at 30 below F. If you don't use the tractor much - you'll probably be fine with a 15W-40 diesel oil that has the right additives. If you plan your starts, and don't have to start the tractor at very cold temps, you're a lot better off with a straight grade.

Here are a few specs.

Pure synthetics - not blended RotellaT SB
Shell 431-64 0W-40 SB viscosity is 85 at 40C, 15 at 100C. Pour point -48C/-54F
Shell 431-636 5W-40SB viscosity is 90 at 40C, and 15 at 100C Pour point -39C/-38F

Conventional petroleum based Rotella T
Shell 431-414 10W-30 viscosity is 86.6 at 40C, 11.9 at 100C. Pour point -42C /43.6F- will
not pump at temps below -35C/-31F

Shell 431-415 15W-40 viscosity is 120 at 40C, 15.8 at 100C. Pour point -39C/-38F - will
not pump at temps below 31.5 C/-24.7F

Conventional petroluem based Rotella T Triple Protection
Shell 431-434 10W-30 viscosity is 81 at 40C, 12 at 100C. Pour point -45C/-49F

Shell 431-435 15W-40 viscosity is 121 at 40C, 15 at 100C. Pour point -40C/-40F

Coventional petroluem based Rotella T single-grades
Shell 431-401 10W viscosity is 33 at 40C, 6.3 at 100C. Shell 431-403 30W viscosity is 98 at 40C, 11.5 at 100C.

Shell 431-406 40W viscosity is 142 at 40C, 14.6 at 100C.

Shell 431-407 50W viscosity is 217 at 40C, 19.1 at 100C.

Deere Plus 50 Oils
15W-40 Conventional Viscosity 119 at 40C, 15.6 at 100C. Pour-point -33C/27.4F

0W-40 Synthetic Viscosity 85.7 at 40C, 15.1 at 100C, pour point -51C/-59.8F

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Texasmark

12-25-2007 15:26:29




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to jdemaris, 12-22-2007 09:19:26  
Jay, you have an impressive list of viscosities vs temp, but you have to back the truck up. There's more to it than that.

I have been a user of Rotella T for many years, like 15 that I can recall, including 500,000 80,000# truck miles per year, and they have earned my respect. They are a premier supplier of diesel oils and have been for many years. You are not about to tell me that this company is going to compromise their reputation with puke oil. You just lost your credibility with me dude!!!!

The last time I went to my local JD dealer, I wanted some of their JD Synthetic and they had none. All they had was their 15W-40 conventional 50+ oil. This is a dealer in the Dallas, Texas Metroplex, with a store in McKinney and another in Sulphur Springs, which happens to be the dairy capitol of N. Texas. They ship tractors all over the world and have a multi hundred million dollar business annually.

So, I mix their 50+ half and half with Rotella T syn 5w-40. Have had nothing but stellar results....to the point where I can work my 100 PTO hp 40 year old 4230 Deere all year and the oil still has somewhat of a honey color. You beat that.....none of the black diesel blues.

But you know, oil is religion. Everyone has their idea of what both are.

Mark

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jdemaris

12-25-2007 15:49:35




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to Texasmark, 12-25-2007 15:26:29  
I don't comprehend what your past experience with Rotella T has to do with what I stated about the newest emission-compliant blend. Your are comparing apples to oranges. I've been using Rotella for many years. Also used to use the old standy, Quaker State HDX until they made a bad batch late 70s and there were diesels all over the country that got damaged.

The new Rotella T forumula marked "Triple Protection" does not have the extreme-wear additives the former Rotella T had, period. The old formula though, was not discontinued - it's just harder ot find on the shelves. It is still manufactured, and still very popular in Europe. Go to wherever you usually buy your oil, and see if you can find any Rotella T that does NOT say "Triple Protection" on it. I can't find it since it's no longer a preferred stock item due to the new diesel emmsisions regs. It can be special ordered, and that jacks the price up.

This has nothing to do with sentiment or "faith" as is often related to religious choices. It has to do with verifiable facts. Shell has several different Rotella T oils, and they are not all the same.

By the say, who is Jay?

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Texasmark

12-26-2007 08:15:25




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to jdemaris, 12-25-2007 15:49:35  
Tell you what I'm going to do man. I have 3 kinds of T on my oil shelf. Later today, I'll go out and look on the containers at the C ratings for both of the parafin based oils I have, pre-triple and the triple protection oil. I do recall reading on a container at least once that the oil , in that container, meets superceded standards; don't currently remember where I read it. It may have been on a T container. If I'm wrong I don't mind apologizing. But now that you said it, it will now be a problem for me to solve as I have it on the oil shelf to put in one of my vintage tractors and maybe I don't want to do that.

Mark

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jdemaris

12-26-2007 08:32:39




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 Some info . . in reply to Texasmark, 12-26-2007 08:15:25  
Here's a little info on the subject - not exactly "fascinating reading."

Although difficult to find, some manufacturers are continuing to produce their CI-4 oils, some of
which can be found at your local auto parts stores. Check the label. If it says CI-4 or CI-4+
alone with no mention of a CJ-4, it's probably has the needed antiwear additives needed for most older engines, gas and diesel.


Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates
widely used as an anti-wear agent in motor oils to protect heavily loaded parts, particularly the
valve train mechanisms (such as the camshaft and cam followers) from excessive wear. It is also
used as an anti-wear agent in hydraulic fluids and certain other products. ZDDP is also an
effective oxidation inhibitor. Oils containing ZDDP should not be used in engines that employ
silver alloy bearings. All car manufacturers before 2007 recommend the use of dialkyl ZDDP in motor
oils for passenger car service. ZDDP was the most commonly used additive in engine oil for sixty years and is a
multi-functional additive which provides the wear protection in almost all engine oil formulations.
In very simple terms, ZDDP, when heated in the high temperatures of the engine, decomposes
to form an extremely thin layer of phosphorous glass over the engine surfaces (sometimes
referred to as "glassivation"). This new layer of glass is perpetually worn away and replenished,
protecting the metal surfaces from wearing away.

The problem for 2007 is that while ZDDP works to protect engines very nicely, it has other
performance features that have become "possibly" detrimental in modern automotive engines to
certain parts of the emissions and exhaust systems.

Oil companies have been cutting back on the use of Zn and P as anti-wear additives, and
turning to alternative zinc-free (ZF) additives and ash-less dispersants since Zn, P, and sulfated
ash have been found to be bad for catalytic converters (new low SAPS oils). This reduction is a mandate issued by API, American Petroleum Institute, who is in charge of
developing standing standards for motor oils. The latest API SM standard for car oils calls for a
zinc and phosphorus content less than 0.08% to reduce sulfur, carbon monoxide, and
hydrocarbon emissions. As a result of this mandate, some motor oils now have as little as
0.05% zinc and phosphorus - including Shell Rotella T "Triple Protection" blend. Prior to the new CJ-4 API standard for diesel oils, we found most
of the CI-4 15w40 and 5w40 oils to have excellent levels of Zn and P.
These new API guidelines do not need apply to “racing,” “severe duty,” or any motor oils that
do not carry an API “starburst” seal or clearly state for off-road-use only. Motor oils meeting
“Energy Conserving I or II” standards should be avoided as well as those with an API SM
classification, with it's lower Zn and P levels, which applies only to 0w20, 0w30, 5w20, 5w30,
and 10w30 "ILSAC" GF-4 grades. Although having been more sensitive to emissions and the
environment than American standards, we find the European ACEA A3 and B3/B4
classifications, which place a cap on P levels at 0.10-0.12%, to be better in taking into
consideration wear and engine longevity while limiting emissions and protecting emissions
control devices. Although difficult to find, some manufacturers are continuing to produce their CI-4 oils, some of
which can be found at your local auto parts stores. Check the label. If it says CI-4 or CI-4+
alone with no mention of a CJ-4, it's probably good.

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F-I-T

12-22-2007 10:15:39




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to jdemaris, 12-22-2007 09:19:26  
This is also where a pony start with a longer uncompressed cranking time is a good thing. The oil gets to circulate a bit, the pony preheats the diesel air intake, and the coolant is being warmed by the pony as well. You can't crank a 730 diesel in cold weather for a couple of minutes just using electricity! Score one for the pony starts!

Frank



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buickanddeere

12-23-2007 11:45:59




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to F-I-T, 12-22-2007 10:15:39  
Any Amsoil diesel oil rated CF-2 for the old two stroke diesels is excellent. It's a low ash formula that doesn't soot up an engine. Link It's in both straight weight 30 and 15W40. Even the 30 weight synthetic will cold flow fine when 30 weight mineral oil has the consistency of cheez whiz.



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dlplost

12-21-2007 22:47:30




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
ROTELLA T



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GentleBen

12-21-2007 18:42:00




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
Thanks F-I-T, Hoss, Wayne for the info, you all agreed on the Diesel oil so thats what its gonna be. You guys on this forum are a great source of info and so many of us really appreciate the help.

Thank You...Ben



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Wayne_H

12-21-2007 17:49:23




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
Ben: I sort of agree, if you have a lot of money in the machine, please don't cut corners on something as simple as oil! Oil has gotten a lot better in the past 50 years! I run synthetic DIESEL oil (JD PLus) in my 20 year old 7.3L truck and my 3 cy yanmar JD tractor. I run mobile one in most of my gas engines now. I also get the oil tested at blackstone labs at each oil change. I guess I may go over board, but I ruined a fairly new log splitter engine a few years go running straight SAE30 oil in the winter. The oil was so thick when it was cold, it did not lubricate the engine for the first few minutes when it was cold, and wore out the exhaust lobe of the cam shaft. Kind of woke me up to cold weather wear issues with the wrong oil. I think I've learned a lot about oil since then. And in my cars I also have stopped changinge the oil every 3,000 miles!

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Hoss in Maine

12-21-2007 16:47:17




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
I,d have to agree with F.I.T.After all that money spent dont scimp on oil.I use 15/40 rotella in my 47A and change once every spring. Later Hoss



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F-I-T

12-21-2007 12:51:47




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 Re: Diesel Engine Oil in reply to GentleBen, 12-21-2007 12:38:44  
Ben:

I would be surprised if the "gasoine" oil is not also diesel, or CE rated. Look at the label closely. If it meets or exceeds your CE severity rating it should be all right to use. That said, if you REALLY restore that diesel, which normally includes the almost always necessary block boring, $800 pistons, $400 in head work and valve parts, crank grind, and $500 fuel system overhaul, do you really want to trust what will probably be near $5000 in the engine systems to the cheapest oil you can find? If you'll only use it locally in parades and for a few shows, you'll probably only have to change it once a year. Seems to me that that is a risky place to cut a corner.

Frank

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