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Bad Gas Question

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John T

09-05-2000 14:57:48




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Okay, help me out a little guys. Over a year ago I put about 15 gal of 92 octane gas in my 38 B (think it has longer shelf life) and never used it up last year. This winter, I added plenty of Sta Bil gas satabilizer and this summer I added about 5 gallons of 87 octane fuel. Well last week it got to sputtering and was harder to start than it ever was. It smokes alot kind of gray not black or blue. By sputtering, I mean she sputters like she may be occasionally missing but never backfires out carb or stack, its just not a pretty steady pop pop or put put it pops then sputters kind of a missing sound and smokes gray. Plugs are black very shortly also. It runs about the same (bad) under no load or load also. About the only time she dont sound bad is at a real real slow idle. (Engine had new rings, valves, guides etc. last year) So, being a perfectionist who wants it PERFECT, I installed new points (set at 0.015), condensor, and coil in the mag, installed new AC 18 (like Autolite 3077 or 589 Champion, real hot plugs) and timed her which sure made it start easier (was timed too fast before that makes them harder to start) but it still sputtered. If the wires are pulled off the plugs it shoots a heavy hot spark almost a half inch. Today, I disassembled the carb and removed all the brass drill plugs and drilled them with the 40 and 53 drill bits I got from Roberts and pulled and cleaned the nozzle and got the carb so clean it could be used in Open Heart Surgery. BUT @#$%^^%$^% she sputters the same. It dont seem to matter much where the power jet is set either (since this problem happened)????? ? but I generally run it as lean as possible all the time so as not to blacken the plugs.

Question is, can old stale gas cause this dern problem ????? ??? Its really making me angry and I even said some bad words which didnt help either. Im gonna drain her tonight and re fill with more fresh 92 see if it helps. A Puzzled John T in Indiana

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trnut

09-06-2000 20:17:26




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
John, can you tell if the sputter is limited to just one side? Seems if its bad gas it wouldn't make a diff, but if a bad plug, wire, valve spring, etc., it should be worse on one or the other. Just my 2 cents worth-Interesting exercise!



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John T

09-07-2000 07:07:37




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to trnut, 09-06-2000 20:17:26  
Cant tell that, Im gonna swap out the mag today and check the valve lash adjustments and air inlet and if that dont fix her remove the carb for about the 3rd time, but a buddy here thinks my older and rusty manifold may have developed some iternal leaks swapping intake air with exhaust. Thanks, John T



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Someone that is smarter than John T?????

09-06-2000 07:31:14




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
What? John T asking for help? I got the impression that you knew it all. Well the problem is in the carb. I know that you cleaned it, but it still has a pluged air passage. If the carb backfire, it is running lean. If it smokes, fuel is going out the exhaust unburnt. This can happen at the same time. If the fuel is going into the motor in big drops, it will smoke because the drops are not burning. Because of this, the motor is running lean. This happens most of the time at idle because of dirt in an air passage. I have also seen it like you descriped it. Why don't you go for hotter spark. Isn't that what you think will cure any motor problem?

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G Taylor John T a humble and knowledgable man

09-06-2000 19:06:56




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to Someone that is smarter than John T?????, 09-06-2000 07:31:14  
John T is not a ego maniac who thinks he knows everything. He was man enough to ask for the wealth of other people's experience in an area of less familiarity. "Somebody smarter" must feel pretty insecure if he takes pleasure from seeing one of the sites best ask for assistance in broadening his knowledge. "Somebody smarter" who didn't even post his name could learn alot from some of the wise old guys who know they are not perfect but try.

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John T (Thanks GT)

09-06-2000 19:44:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to G Taylor John T a humble and knowledgable man, 09-06-2000 19:06:56  
Yeah I do enjoy helping others here but when Im puzzled myself, I am not one bit ashamed to call on all you good ol boys for theories which maybe I havent thought of. True, some of the suggestions I already tried, but I appreciate any and all inputs. I will systematically trouble shoot her and fix the problem until it is perfect cause thats how I like em to run. Best wishes GT Ol John T (sure as heck dont know it all maybe a little electrical and decent on engineering theory, but most old farmers have forgot more than I know about these 2 cylinders))

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John T (Passages are clean)

09-06-2000 12:16:39




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to Someone that is smarter than John T?????, 09-06-2000 07:31:14  
I havent give up (wont till shes perfect again like its been all year till now) but all the carbs brass drill plugs were previously (and again yesterday) removed and 40 and 53 drill bits bored throughout (plus nozzle removed and re cleaned) and its not any clogged air or idle passages. It idles ok, its the load circuit if anything (not air or idle) but thats all okay also and its been cleaned even under all those drill plugs also. Im trying a diff mag tomorrow and re checking any inlet air restrictions. I will keep you all informed as this is a good learnign experience for us all. Thanks for your input and compliments, but theres none of us that dont need a little help at times. I sure do and enjoy helping others also. PS no it dont need a hotter spark, thats needed more when you run higher compression and exotic fuels. (The pulers) Im tryign a diff mag cause there may be a defect in the present one but its still just a standard mag. Ol John T

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Jim from Stonepile

09-05-2000 21:58:36




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
You may want to ceck the choke butterfly. I had a problem like that on a '52 "B". The butterfly is spring loaded and it was tight in the bushings and wouldn't open when the choke knob was pushed in. Just a thought, good luck-JIM



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Randy

09-05-2000 21:33:47




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
Your problem is most likely a worn governor case. The governor shaft is bouncing and causeing your mag to miss. Because it was not designed to carry the weight of the governor shaft. Page 36 of the IT Manuel for the 50, 60, 70 explains the procedure for repairing the governor "case". This has resolved my problem several times. If I can be of any further assistance let me know.



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John T (New gas didnt help)

09-05-2000 18:57:31




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
Well, I drained the old gas and put in new fresh 94 octane (let alot run out the bowl cock drain before shutting it off) which is a prettier color, but it still runs awful. Im going to install a different mag tomorrow since thats only a 5 min job and if that dont fix it, I know its a carb/fuel problem. The plugs seem to blacken way too quick but the choke butterfly (and throttle shaft also) etc is all new and tight and correct. I removed and cleaned the carb today perfect and the nozzle even was removed and cleaned and the float does not leak and hasnt been moved (the level) since it was running perfect before. If I didnt know better, it acts a little like its running rich but the float bowl never overfills and I have adjusted the load needle and it was all cleaned and seemed just right at todays disassembly and clean and re assembly. Hey, maybe the air cleaner or intake pipes etc. may be clogged a bit ????? ????? ? I will check that also. The load needle adjustment, however, dont make as much difference as it used too ????? ??? It still starts much better though. Im taking it to the Elnora show and it will be okay to take, but I may wait till after the show to fix it right. Ol John T

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DougS

09-06-2000 04:29:23




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T (New gas didnt help), 09-05-2000 18:57:31  
JohnT..Do you know Harry Lee from Elnora? He came to Texas a couple of times to one of our state shows. I was impressed with his mechanical prowess on his triple F30. He gave a good demonstration pull with that machine and really plowed the ground up with those wide steel wheels. Good luck on your gas troubles...Doug



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John T

09-06-2000 06:07:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to DougS, 09-06-2000 04:29:23  
Yes I know him he practically started the Elnora show Im going to this weekend he has like 100 Famalls, but only about one JD. I will let you know what I discover Im gonna check the air intake and filter now. John T



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Chuck

09-05-2000 19:31:47




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T (New gas didnt help), 09-05-2000 18:57:31  
John T. I had a 38B and had to change the main nozzel to a smaller size....those main nozzels are for distillate and gas just made too rich a mixture....hope to see you at Elnora....Chuck in Ky.



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ErnieD

09-05-2000 18:01:59




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
Yep, you got bad gas. As far as I can determine gas stabilizer is little more than oil that prevents varnish from forming. The stabilizer has a tendency to sink to the bottom and be the first to hit the carb. I have had good luck mixing new with old @ 50-50 and using it up. My snow blower runs stinko until the new works its way through.



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Chuck

09-05-2000 15:25:39




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 Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to John T, 09-05-2000 14:57:48  
John T. I believe you are on the exact track. The gas seems to go dead and conveniental ignition will not burn it. I'm the guy that wrote about electronic ignition some time ago. Put on a 520/620 and a 50. Well yesterday I made a trip to local Church to load a large stump, driving the 50, about a 1 mile trip. Not because it's mine but that tractor had power that I'd never seem. Very little acceleration smoke but deep burning power. I believe the convienant voltage is not hot enough to stave off the fuel conditions we have today. Your best test would be to buy aviation or racing fuel and see if it comes alive. In my opinion fuel quality has been reduced.

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clooney

09-05-2000 16:14:57




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 Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to Chuck, 09-05-2000 15:25:39  
John T, that stale gas sure isn't helping it any. When gasoline sits the light ends (the stuff that ignites easily) rises to the top of the tank and sits as a gas on top of the liquid, so every time the temperature changes in the tank the light ends are pushed out the vent & air replaces them. It doesn't take long and all that is left is heavy slow to ignite non-volatile liquid that will cause very hard starting & poor carb. metering. Usually old fuel will cause hard starting, poor performance under load, but will run OK at part throttle with little load. Stabil helps but won't completely stop the light ends from evaporating over time. The easiest thing to try is new gasoline & if that doesn't completely cure the poor running at least you know it isn't that causing the problem. I save the old gasoline & use it to clean with (no lectures please).

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charles

09-07-2000 19:02:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Bad Gas Question in reply to clooney, 09-05-2000 16:14:57  
If replacing gas improves but not completely slove the problem try 1 or 2 bottles of 91% not 70% rubbing alcohol. 70% is already water satured.



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