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Best Octane Fuel Discussion ?

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John T

12-19-2000 14:52:04




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Over the past year, especially over the winter, I have been using high octane (94) gas in my unstyled B because I heard many good old boys swear it has a longer shelf life, it varnishes up less, and is higher refined and overall better quality and it made some sense. HOWEVER, I just read an article in Modern Maturity Magazine (Dont you young dudes laugh) that claimed that isnt a good thing to do. It stated that the higher octane was designed to be used and run at higher compression and hotter temperature (DUH I already knew and agree with that to reduce pre ignition) AND that if used in lower compression engines (like most cars on the road) it doesnt burn as efficiently and completely and leaves more carbon residue. NOW as we all know, our old Johns dont have even as much compression as the newer cars, so Im wondering if I shouldnt quit using that high octane fuel altogether. I would appreciate all you chemical and mechanical types weighing in on this so we can all benefit. PS I still use Sta Bil in summer, but especially over the winter. Ol John T NOT A CHEMIST

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Bill

12-21-2000 06:48:16




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
John T-- Don't know much about gas, but what I do know is that we in general do not use the tractors the way they were intended. We idle around, maybe mow or plow just for fun. The thing I have found is that if I use a hotter plug that I get longer life out of it. I use a champion D23, they are a little more expensive but have proven to be worth it. Not much of a fuel additive man and of course what I've read not many people like champion plugs, but every horse has it's own color. Just my thoughts, try to keep it simple that way it doesn't cause many headaches. Bill

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BOZO (the chemist)

12-20-2000 23:11:01




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
I'm a bit beyond my expertise here, but higher octane is designed to prevent secondary ignition of the fuel on the far side of the combustion chamber as the shock wave of the flame front is reflected from the far side of the combustion chamber. In short make the fuel more difficult to ignite, i.e. use the lower octane in these old John Deeres and I would include 30X0's and 40X0's in this also. In my opinion Ethyl gas (tetra-ethyl lead) was the worst slop ever pawned off on the consumer. I do not believe that it ever lubed or cushioned a valve. My first car was a '67 Bowtie with a 327 with 10.5 compression ratio. While on a trip I was about out of gas and the station was out of ethyl so I put in lead-free which was a little higher octane. I never bought ethyl again. Prior to this the plugs needed to be changed at 5000 mi. When I sold the car at 160,000+ mi it would accelerate smoothly from 15 MPH in high gear with 15,000 mi on the plugs. On the highway the car was driven 65 - 75 MPH unless I was late or in a hurry. I do not believe in lead subtitutes either. At least some of the first ones contained a manganese compound which I suspected condensed as an oxide on the plugs. This then absorbs water from the combustion and conducts enough electricity to kill or weaken the spark. My brother's 46 A will start the first time around if you throttle, and choke it appropriately. If not it will never fire for the starter again. He insists on including lead substitute in its diet. Get the chain. It could stand a few incantations on the mag. and carb. but is now only the mower tractor. Ifyou want to lube the valves include a bit of diesel it your tractors diet.

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clooney

12-21-2000 05:18:20




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 Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to BOZO (the chemist), 12-20-2000 23:11:01  
Attached is a copy of a Chevron report generated after about 15 years of gathering data on "unleaded gasoline use in older vehicles".


Use of Unleaded Gasoline in Cars Designed for Leaded Gasoline


With all the media attention being given to the reduction of lead in gasoline and the potential of phasing out leaded gasoline, many consumers are asking the question "If my car was designed to run on leaded gasoline, will it operate satisfactorily on unleaded gasoline?"
The answer to the question is yes. The chief concern has been for the possibility of exhaust valve recession (sink or seat wear) when these engines are operated on unleaded gasoline. After 15 years of experience in marketing Chevron Unleaded Gasoline, we felt that enough accumulated data could be obtained from different sources to allow us to finally arrive at some definite answers.

Passenger Cars and Light-Duty Trucks:

Based on an extensive survey of the published literature, fleet operators, engine rebuilders, and manufacturers, we conclude that all typical passenger car and light-duty truck engines (representing 94% of U.S. gasoline consumption) are safe from valve recession when operated on unleaded gasoline. They are either equipped with induction hardened valve seats or subjected to service too mild to cause problems. The problem can only occur in older engines when operating under sustained high speeds and loads.


Vintage Vehicles:

Antique cars are typically exposed to such light service that they are not expected to have any valve seat problems. In fact, they stand to benefit overall from a reduction in exhaust system corrosion and oil contamination.


Heavy-Duty Industrial Engines:

Specifically, these engines are moderate displacement engines, and some large displacement heavy-duty truck engine in industrial applications. Many of these were equipped with alloy valve seat inserts (alone or with stellite faced valves) which offer the best protection against valve seat wear. These engines account for about 6% of total U.S. gasoline consumption. Some heavy-duty gasoline engines without valve seat inserts might be vulnerable to damage in severe service. The exact number of these is unknown, but they clearly consume much less than the 6% of U.S. gasoline for this category. For those few engines without valve seat inserts, preventive measures should be taken to reduce the severity of their service. Avoidance of full throttle operation for extended periods is primarily what is necessary. As a last measure, install hardened inserts and/or stellite valves, if possible, or utilize a commercially available lead substitute additive in the fuel.


Marine Engines:

There is concern about older four-stroke cycle engines in marine service, which were designed prior to the introduction of unleaded gasoline (pre-1974). Under severe duty, these older engines could have valve recession problems. If these engines are in severe duty service, owners should consider installing hard seat inserts or using lead substitute additives to minimize valve recession. Products like this have been found effective in minimizing valve recession.
Mercury, who is a major supplier of Stern Drive Engines for marine use, advises that their engines are automotive based and have hardened exhaust valve seats. Most of Mercury's outboard engines were developed with unleaded gasolines, and Mercury's only concern is with octane number.

All of Outboard Marine Corporation's current four-stroke cycle engines were designed for unleaded gasoline and valve protection additives are not needed. Additives are also not needed for their two-stroke cycle engines, however, some of them may have the need for octanes higher than 87(R+M)/2.

The newer Volvo Pinta Stern-Drive four-stroke cycle engines are designed for use with unleaded gasoline. Some of the older engines are not. We would suggest owners contact their dealer for advice if they have an older engine in severe service.

Yamaha outboard engines operate satisfactorily on unleaded gasoline. At least one model, a high performance Model 225, requires a minimum 89(R+M)/2 gasoline.

Outboard Marine Corporation has issued a Service Letter for General Information #53, August 1985, subject: Gasoline Lead and Alcohol. This bulletin is very comprehensive on their position regarding unleaded gasoline use and has extensive guidelines relating to their minimum octane level desired. This should be available from Johnson and Evinrude dealers.

Farm Equipment:

A federal sponsored study of older gasoline-powered farm equipment showed some performed satisfactorily on unleaded gasoline, but most experience valve-seat wear, especially during the water pumping portion of the testing. As discussed previously, operating at light load, replacing the valve seats with hardened inserts, or using lead substitute additives can help solve the valve-recession problems in critical engines.
Two-stroke and four-stroke cycle engines (motorcycle, small utility, and other various recreational vehicle engines):

In general, two-stroke cycle will operate without problems on unleaded gasoline. These engines do not have valves, and most will actually benefit from using unleaded gasoline because of reductions in spark plug and combustion chamber deposits. Lead is not required to provide lubrication for pistons or piston rings, as is sometimes claimed. Owner's manual recommendations should be followed, particularly for new engines under warranty. Owners of older engines should contact the manufacturer for guidance in choosing a proper octane fuel, or to obtain service information about ignition timing and low compression kits which may be required for unleaded/low lead fuels of lower octane.

In discussion with Briggs and Stratton, a major manufacturer of small engines for lawnmowers, pumps, etc., they indicate that all post-1979 engines can use unleaded gasoline and that they do not anticipate any problems with pre-1979 engines for normal service. Where heavy-duty service is anticipated, they suggest a valve protector additive be used. All models of their industrial and commercial small engines can use unleaded regardless of age. We have also determined that the following makes can use unleaded gasoline regardless of age:


Continental Homelite Honda Onan Tecumseh Wisconsin

Lead Substitute Additives:

Since the advent of drastically reduced levels of lead in leaded gasoline, numerous lead substitute additives have appeared on the market. These products are designed to provide a protective coating on valve seats and inhibit valve sink. Because the composition of these products varies considerably, the labels should be read carefully to ensure safe handling. These lead substitute additives are not needed and should not be used in two-stroke cycle engines.
Summarizing, we do not see problems occurring in the overwhelming majority of engines in all categories, when unleaded gasoline is used.

Copyright © 1990 Chevron USA Inc. All rights reserved.

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John T (Thanks, Great Article)

12-21-2000 06:37:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to clooney, 12-21-2000 05:18:20  
Nice post there. Most of us, even without the benefit of this article, have usually said if you have installed hardened valve seats or dont use the tractor extended periods under heavy loads, it will be years before you experience any (if any at all) valve problems caused by unleaded fuel. After all the posts on this subject, I think I will just use a good name brand of regular gasoline and do away with the high test stuff. John T

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Mike Aylward

12-20-2000 10:39:49




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
John, I'm wondering if the reason some of the fellows like the lower octane gas better is due not to the quality of the gas, but because to get the higher octane fuel, toluene, xylene, benzine, and other lighter parts are added to get the octane effect, and due to the fact that these parts will vaporize if stored for very long, then what is left will then be of lower quality than the lower octane fuel started with, and also harder to light. I know in my pulling tractor with aviation fuel that you can tell a difference whether the fuel is fresh, or if it's even two weeks old. The dyno has confirmed this. The reason I use avgas in my old tractors stored for the winter is that there is less gum in it if it does vaporize (and I always have it). Something to think about. Mike

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Greg H.

12-20-2000 10:01:08




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
John T
Up until this year I always used 93 octane in my 66 4020 gas. However I was told on this forum earlier in the year about using 87 instead, due to my engines relatively low 7.5 to one compression ratio. I started using 87 this summer, and realy found no benificial results, until November, when it started getting cold. The tractor seemed to continue to fire,and start on the first role, just like it does in the summer. This wasn't the same with the 93 octane I've used the past 3 winters, the tractor would always start, but would usually grind alittle more. It's almost Christmas, and I'm still starting easy, but now with the aid of the chock on half. I now do believe that the 87 lights up alittle easier. Merry Christmas John T.

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Butch(OH)

12-20-2000 06:08:43




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
Hello guys, I visit this board often, but I must admit that I am a A-C nut. I have tried to get this same discussion going with no luck on the A-C board. I have an old A-C that still has the kerosene compression ratio (4.4 to 1). As soon as it gets a little warmer here I am going to dyno it starting with low grade gas and mix in kerosene until I get to all kerosene. If you would like to see the results, I will post them here also.

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clooney

12-20-2000 06:30:41




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 Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to Butch(OH), 12-20-2000 06:08:43  
Butch, yes by all means post it here too. You might want to try mixing some diesel fuel in with the kerosene as there are more BTUs per pound of diesel fuel than either gasoline or kerosene. The way Buckeye Al mixes it (post below) should actually make more power on an all-fuel than straight gasoline, but I have never seen it proven on a dyno.



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clooney

12-21-2000 07:59:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to clooney, 12-20-2000 06:30:41  
I mispoke above, I should have said "there is more BTUs per gallon" of diesel than kerosene or gasoline. Diesel weighs more than gasoline so you get less per gallon. Fuel is metered through the carb by volume & not weight so BTUs per gallon are what matters.,, gasoline= 115,900-125,000 BTUs per gallon kerosene= 121,500-135,000 BTUs per gallon #2 diesel= 138,000-140,000 BTUS per gallon

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Bill {Antique Acres}

12-19-2000 17:37:20




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
I like yourself and many others was told and thought that higher octane meant better. I always used 93 when I pulled one of my tractors or when I went to a plow day. I was at the station one day filling up the tractor tank and a guy said you know that's the wrong gas. I just felt he didn't know anything as I was the one with the tractor on the trailer. Come to find out he was right. You need high compression to burn high octane fuel. Something about ignition point and it is hard to combust and burn completley before the next shot enters the combustion chamber. He told me to try to find/create something around 83 octane. I am no expert, but do have less problems now using the lower 87 octane. Bill {Antique Acres}

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Justin

12-19-2000 20:01:53




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 Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to Bill {Antique Acres}, 12-19-2000 17:37:20  
One thing to consider is that higher octane gas is basically more resistent to burning. It is made like this so that it won't ignite without being sparked first in higher comrpession engines. So the lowest octane gas that your motor will run on without detonating or pinging is the one it will run best on and will have the most power with.

Justin

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buckeye al

12-19-2000 15:52:41




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 Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to John T, 12-19-2000 14:52:04  
I use the cheapest lowest grade gas I can find. If it's going to get used and the gas burned up soon after purchase, I try to use alcohol blended fuel. I do however stay away from Ethanol blends if it will be sitting for any length of time. The Ethanol tends to combine with atmospheric water vapor and then separates from the gasoline. Then the fun can start! I have 2 all fuel A's and I mix in about 10% #2 diesel in summer, 'bout half that in winter. I don't have a plug fouling problem. In fact have had the same plugs in the 47 long hood (my plow contest and primary parade tractor) since 1989! Gonna have to replace 'em though. They're starting to rust & look bad. I check the gap each year, put a little never sieze on the threads then put 'em back. Probably sees less than 25 hours a year. He has a gravy life.

Later.

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ToddF

12-20-2000 07:26:14




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 Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to buckeye al, 12-19-2000 15:52:41  
I have a JD 70gas. I was aware that the lowest octane gas was the one to use, but from a post above saying deisel has more BTU's, should I consider cutting gas with diesel? This assumes that deisel has a lower octane rating than gas, is that correct? Does my 70gas (it is entirely stock) have more compression than an All-fuel and therefore need higher octane and how much?



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G Taylor btu's per lb

12-20-2000 23:00:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to ToddF, 12-20-2000 07:26:14  
Aviation gasoline 100/130 octane( now banned)
ignition temp 824F, Kerosene ignition temp 440F
Toluene ignition temp 896F Net energy per kg benzene 40.14 MJ butane 45.17 MJ ethanol 26.81 MJ hydrogen 130.8 MJ methanol 19.94 MJ propane 45.79 MJ toluene 40.52 MJ black powder 2.2 MJ butter 38.5 MJ fuel oil #1 46.1 MJ fuel oil #6 42.5 MJ gasoline 46.8 MJ jet jp1 46.6 MJ jet jp3 45.9 MJ jet jp4 46.4 MJ jet jp5 45.9 MJ kerosene jetA 46.4 MJ

This is by weight.

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clooney

12-20-2000 07:41:37




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 Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to ToddF, 12-20-2000 07:26:14  
ToddF you can try a little diesel in the gasoline but it will lower the octane of the gasoline some & will probably knock under load if used with regular gasoline. The more advanced ignition timing & higher compression of the gas 70 probably won't gain you much with the use of diesel in the gasoline but will help lube the valve seats & upper end. You will probably need to re-adjust your carb load needle a little also. I have put a quart or two of diesel fuel in my tractors for years to help valve seat recession & keep the carb from rusting inside but haven't noticed any power gain (I don't put enough in to make much difference)

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Zman

12-21-2000 04:21:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to clooney, 12-20-2000 07:41:37  
I have heard some tractor nuts swear by Marvel Mystery Oil. Others don't like it. What do you all think? I have used it sometimes and other times not in my A but I've never noticed a difference. Would MM Oil protect the valve seats and keep the inside of the carb from rusting?



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G Taylor

12-21-2000 10:56:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Best Octane Fuel Discussion ? in reply to Zman, 12-21-2000 04:21:30  
Just seen the wonderous elixer called Marvel Mystery Oil for the 1st time this week. It was on the shelf at "crappy tire" ( Canadian Tire). Bought some just to see what the big deal was. It smells like something in the refinery lab but not sure what it is. Must be close to cutting threading oil & some ketones. It's related to that STP sticky lifter wonder fixer in a bottle as well .



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