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Ammeter I thought were fire hazards

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mtnbikerman

04-04-2005 09:46:50




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I switched out my jeep ammeter to a voltmeter because of fire hazard. Would it be adviseable to switch to voltmeter and change wiring away from alternator running directly into the gauge?




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mtnbikerman

04-05-2005 13:21:57




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 Is the ammeter supposed to read Zero ? in reply to mtnbikerman, 04-04-2005 09:46:50  
For a Good Reading, by the way where can I get all the headlight assemblies. I have the winged brackets but need everything else.
Thanks



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Gerald J.

04-05-2005 14:37:03




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 Re: Is the ammeter supposed to read Zero ? in reply to mtnbikerman, 04-05-2005 13:21:57  
The ammeter should show a discharge with the key on and the engine not running. Lights make for a greater discharge then. Once running the ammeter should show a charge for a while, depending on the difficulty of the start and the battery condition. Current should taper to zero as the battery charges and the time for that depends on the current available from the dynamo and the auxiliary loads like lights that are on during the charging period. After that, the ammeter should stay at zero unless the auxiliary load exceeds the dynamo current capability.

Gerald J.

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Gerald J.

04-04-2005 11:06:16




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to mtnbikerman, 04-04-2005 09:46:50  
Ammeter wiring does carry fairly high currents. Its no more fire hazard than any other wires from alternator to battery and to loads. Unless you put in undersized wired. In my electrical engineering opinion (based on experiment using far higher quality meters than automotive parts) that the voltmeter is of no use. The ammeter is of considerable information benefit. The resolution of the ordinary automotive voltmeter is too poor, but not as bad as the factory voltmeter in my F-150 with two calibration points at 8 and 18 volts. If the battery gets down to 8 volts the computer will have already shut the engine down and the lights will be just a dull orange. If the system voltage gets up to 18 volts the lamps will have burnt out, and probably the computer. So that voltmeter information is of no value other than a dash panel DECORATION.

Worse the only voltage of any possible benefit is the battery voltage but most voltmeter connections from the factory are at some point in the system away from the battery (so it can be conveniently turned off to keep it from draining the battery) so they read a lower voltage than battery terminal voltage when loaded and a higher voltage than battery terminal voltage when charging. The net result is confusing information at best, useless at worst.

Then the desired battery voltage varies with battery temperature and full charge electrolyte density.

Use some number 6 welding stranded cable for the ammeter wiring with machine crimped terminals and it won't be a fire hazard unless you run it through a fire wall hole without a sturdy grommet.

The ammeter shows energy flow to and from the battery. The voltmeter may show the amount of energy stored in the battery but ONLY IF the voltmeter is connected at the battery terminals AND the voltmeter has resolution and precision better than 0.05 volts.

Gerald J., Electrical Engineer.

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Bill Darte

04-05-2005 09:22:09




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to Gerald J., 04-04-2005 11:06:16  
OK, I found the article at AutoMeter site that I couldn't find for my earlier post. >Link
This>Link 'expert' says that a voltmeter is 'by far' better than an ammeter....

Another article is biased against ammeters too, but it offers pros and cons to each.
Link

I'd love to hear the rebuttle from Gerald J. not to start the religious war, but I am absolutely in the throws of making this decision right now and while it isn't earthshaking either way, I only have one dash hole to fill.

I'd rather make the right choice the will give me the MOST useful information MOST often or be convinced that one is better to give me LEAD time when something is going wrong or useful information to pinpoint what's wrong if it can't show me the impending failure in advance.

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Bill Darte

04-05-2005 08:16:18




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to Gerald J., 04-04-2005 11:06:16  
This can be a religious war as I have investigated this question on the WWW.

Given your premise of ammeter superiority, I ran across the following diagram(s) that show the 'right way' and the 'wrong way(s)' to wire up an ammeter.
Link

The 'right way' seems to be at odds with the wiring diagram at the following site...

Link

Am I mistaken? Which way is right? Or are these apples and oranges?

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tgrn

04-06-2005 07:08:55




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to Bill Darte, 04-05-2005 08:16:18  
Ammeters keep track of all current moving about in your electrical system to/from the battery with one very important exception:

The 200 amps that goes thru the starting solenoid "high current" contacts to roll the starter.

Mark



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Gerald J.

04-05-2005 11:04:29




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to Bill Darte, 04-05-2005 08:16:18  
The Yahoo picture is poorly drawn. The brown wire from the ignition switch going towards the coil can't be connected to the wire on terminal 2 of the voltage regulator else the ignition key would not stop the engine. That terminal 2 on a four terminal alternator regulator is odd. Probably peculiar to Lucas as on a British made MF tractor.

The right way on the other link is good.

The only thing connected to the battery and not through the ammeter is the starter. All loads and charging goes through the ammeter. Large well insulated wire is an asset.

I had an 8N with an ammeter that had no terminals. The wire just passed through a clip and the magnetic field from the wire move a magnet attached to the pointer. The same thing happens in the automotive ammeter, just that single wire is inside and there are terminals.

If one is going to futz about under the dash with wrenches and get close to the ammeter terminals, one should disconnect the battery ground connection FIRST. Or cover the ammeter terminals. As well as those for lights and the ignition switch.

As for usefullness, the ammeter wins in my opinion as stated before. The voltmeter is fully capable of giving misinformation or just no information from lack of resolution.

What are the failures of the charging system?

Most common is a corroded battery connection. If it comes loose while running, the voltmeter will happily indicate full charge the instant the engine is running, but the battery isn't taking charge. The voltmeter might go to zero when trying to crank though. The ammeter will show zero when turning on the ignition or lights or charging in that case. With the bad connection, the ammeter will show reduced current for lights and ignition loads (though the dim lights should be a hint of dead battery or bad connections).

The ammeter shows a peak of charge right after starting which tapers off as time goes by with a constant voltage comming from the voltage regulated generator or alternator. If the voltage is correct or low the current will taper to zero. If the voltage from the charging dynamo is high the current won't taper to zero and the battery will need water often.

When the battery gets old and sulfated the current won't drop with time but the voltage goes to the charging voltage and stays there. So the ammeter shows the lack of charge taper but the voltmeter shows full charge.

All voltmeter readings are more useless when they aren't at the battery terminals. The voltage under load or charge anywhere else in the wiring is different, low for loads, high for charging. And so is again misleading.

Back about 1965 I mounted laboratory quality voltmeter and ammeter (with remote shunt) in my VW bug on a six volt system. The voltmeter just didn't tell me nearly as much as the ammeter. The ammeter showed me the failings of the electromechanical voltage regulator with relay cutout and when I stuffed a newer engine with a 12 volt generator (generators not interchangeable) I built a solid state voltage regulator with diode cutout that was significantly better for battery life because it stopped the ten amp reverse current typical of the cutout when running too slow to charge but too fast to get the cutout to open. Which seemed to be at common city driving speeds.

I tried testing my 4020 generator charging with a voltmeter. I learned nothing using a Simpson 260. It hinted it was charging but I kept having to put a charger on to get enough into the battery for starting. Yes voltage rose, when charging but not enough. I mounted and wire an ammeter. It bounced from peg to peg even after I put in new brushes and polished the commutator. So I mounted a 10-SI alternator. Now the battery charges in ten or 15 minutes of running and I've not had to charge the battery with the AC charger since.

Originality is nice but there's no provisions for hand cranking the 340 cubic inch engine. I don't think I'd try if there was!

Gerald J.

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Bill Darte

04-05-2005 12:14:40




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 Ammeter last thoughts in reply to Gerald J., 04-05-2005 11:04:29  
Will the resolution that I get on a 60-0-60 automotive ammeter be distinguishable?

My 135 has a Delco-Remy alternator with and integrated plug on the 'back' with F & S terminals and a single wire running from the F terminal to the external voltage regulator. Nothing runs from the other terminal (S?). I understand that this was to wire up a 'dash light'.

Should this S terminal be connected anywhere?

Thanks loads for the information and perspective.

bd

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txgrn

04-06-2005 07:10:38




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 Re: Ammeter last thoughts in reply to Bill Darte, 04-05-2005 12:14:40  
Some regulators labeled this terminal "L" for lights.

Mark



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Gerald J.

04-05-2005 14:32:53




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 Re: Ammeter last thoughts in reply to Bill Darte, 04-05-2005 12:14:40  
The stator wire is an output to run an idiot light that is worse than useless compared to a voltmeter. The idiot light goes out when the alternator voltage gets almost high enough to charge, but a slipping (glazed) belt won't give it any power to charge. That cost me a car once.

The 135's loads like ignition and flashing rear light may move the 60 amp meter pointer half a pointer's width. Though if you have a good sized wire from the alternator, you might get more than 30 amps charging. Costs you 8 bucks or so to try the wrong sized meter and then to change.

Gerald J.

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txblu

04-05-2005 07:19:19




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 Re: Ammeter I thought were fire hazards in reply to Gerald J., 04-04-2005 11:06:16  
Agree. (45 years trying to prove Kirchoff wrong. Grin).

Besides the ammeter tells you what you want to know and that is that your charger (gen/alt) is putting back the energy you removed from the battery for some reason..... and how much. Voltmeters are flukey, neee a digital meter to see that .05v and the voltage is not the same during and immediately after charging. Battery has to stabilize to get correct energy level (specific gravity) and that depends on temp and other things.

My 2c

Mark

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