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Injection Pump
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Replace, or Rebuild?

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Mike (MI)

01-14-2002 09:51:43




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Hi, guys. I just bought a 1960 M5 that needs some injection work. One hole doesn't hit until it gets some heat into it, and pops eratically through the muffler until then. I know it needs new nozzles and probably energy cells as well. It currently has a American Bosch pump on it. My question is this: Would it make more sense to trade for a Roosta Master pump rather than rebuild the Bosch unit? I understand Roosta's are more common. I'm wondering, however, if the nozzles need to be different, and if the high pressure lines would have to be changed as well. I really haven't done much reserch on this yet, but was hoping someone has done this already and could give me an idea of what it cost them, and what had to be changed, etc.

Thanks,

Mike

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Hoss

01-16-2002 19:22:41




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 Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike (MI), 01-14-2002 09:51:43  
If it runs on all cylinders after it warms up a bit, you have low compression. Don't just assume it is the the rings, as they don't nomally cause that much compression loss unless it is puking oil out as fast as you put it in. These engines barely had enough compression to burn diesel when new, and if the valves are ground more than once without installing seats and new valves, they will not have enough compression the run right until they are warmed up. You will need a compression tester for diesel engines, as the pressures are way too high for any gas engine tester. You will have to build an adapter, (an old injector with the internals removed and a fitting welded on works best.

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Keith Morris

01-16-2002 16:35:58




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 Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike (MI), 01-14-2002 09:51:43  
Try poring about 2 qts of transmission fluid in the fuel tank this will burn the carbon off of the injectors this is how i keep my diesels running smooth



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Jeff

01-15-2002 19:36:54




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 Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike (MI), 01-14-2002 09:51:43  
If you change the pump let me know if you want to sell the old pum



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ryan

01-14-2002 17:14:45




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 Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike (MI), 01-14-2002 09:51:43  
If you do decide to change it to roosamaster you will have to change the lines as the bosch has that radial head and they have different fitting than the roosa. what filtration system do you have? Is it the glass bottom filters, cottom filter or multiple canister filters?


ryan



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Mike(MI)

01-14-2002 17:41:39




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 Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to ryan, 01-14-2002 17:14:45  
Ryan,

It has three canisters in a row. The two are pre transfer pump, and the third is between the transfer pump and injector pump. Probably the filtering system would have to be changed as well? Thanks for your input.

Mike



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ryan

01-14-2002 17:48:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike(MI), 01-14-2002 17:41:39  
I forgot something else. You will need to change the housing that the pump bolts to. The drives are different. You need to take the plate off the front off the engine. I have been wondering if you need to change the filter base or not. I don't know if a guy can just plug the two other holes and run one single line to the roosa, but then what about the return. In the long run you will be money and performance ahead with your roosa. You can only overspeed a bosch and cannot truly turn the fuel up on them.

ryan p.s I am going to change a gbd to roosa

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compression test

01-14-2002 12:53:50




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 Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike (MI), 01-14-2002 09:51:43  
Better run a compression test on the all four cylinders. You may need to work on the cylinders instead of the injection system. I just heard of a guy that worked on the pump and injectors then ran the compression test and found poor compression was where his problem was at.



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Mike(MI)

01-14-2002 14:39:16




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 Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to compression test, 01-14-2002 12:53:50  
Good point. I'll do that first. I assume the compression gauge is installed in place of the energy cells in order to check compression? Never checked compression on a diesel before.



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JK

01-15-2002 06:30:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike(MI), 01-14-2002 14:39:16  
Mike,
The compression gauge is generally installed in the injector position on diesels. John



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Trucker

01-16-2002 22:55:35




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to JK, 01-15-2002 06:30:17  
I think you might want to try some injector cleaner.I use Howes once in a while in my truck.What it does is takes the water out of the fuel by changing it in a way so it will burn.It might be,just might now,that if the cylinder thats missing is plugged up with varnish it might fix it.I think I would try that and if it doesnt fix it I dont think its the pump if it runs warmed up.I think it might need the valves adjusted,or worse.If it was the rings I think it would be pouring out a lot of smoke,especially out of the blowby tube.Another quick way to check rings is take the oil filler cap off and if a steady stream of air,smoke,whatever,blows your hand off it while its running its about sure to be rings.See if all the compression is going by them its only place to go out is the blowby.If it kind of puffs its likely one cylinder.If its a valve you can start it up cold,and real quick tell which one it is by holding your bare hand on the manifold.The last part of the manifold to get hot is the one not firing.Might just try setting that one.When you have the valve cover off look for signs of carbon more than the rest on the exhaust valves.If its bad you can sometimes see it on top.Another thing that causes valves to get worn out on a diesel is idling a lot,might not be getting enough oil up there to keep it oiled.I would sure try some of that before I went pulling injectors or changing a pump.If the tractor sets a lot the rings might even be stuck on one cylinder and after everything swells up it hits,the cleaner might help on that too.I dont know if trans fluid is going to work on cleaning the tips,but I know Howes makes my truck run better when I use it.Truckstops have it especially where its cold.It says it works for anti gell too.

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Mike(MI)

01-17-2002 04:52:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Trucker, 01-16-2002 22:55:35  
I am friends with the guy I purchased the tractor from, and helped him get it running when he first bought it. It has had this condition since he bought it. As far as blow by - it flows a continous stream of blow by even at idle. I've been around diesels before, and have not seen that much blow by even with them working hard. I forgot that it had that much. If the wind is blowing just right, it's almost a cloud around the tractor. That's way too much. I will do a compression check, using one of the extra nozzle holders, a check valve, and a 0 to 1000 psi gauge. This tractor had set for quite some time before the last owner bought it, and now it has just spent another year sitting. It has obviously had little to no maintanence, so rings are a definate possibility. It's never been rebuilt. For $75 each, I can have new nozzles and the pop off pressure set in the injectors. Might be worth it. I'll try the Howes as well - I'm sure there is a little water in there. This thing has never been in a shed - until now.
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. They are very appreciated. There is nothing like drawing from experience.

Thanks, Mike(MI)

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Trucker

01-18-2002 18:11:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike(MI), 01-17-2002 04:52:27  
I would say you probobly need at least rings,and on a diesel it might not be a lot higher to get the complete cylinder kits.If it is real expensive for kits,see if you can get the rings if the grooves in the pistons arent worn out or the pistons arent scuffed on the sides,or the liners dont have a deep groove.I know it gets expensive and you might want to ask a mechanic that has worked on one of these tractors his opinion first.There are likely other things to consider.I have rebuilt a lot of Cummins engines,a few Cats,and a couple of Detroit 2 cycle engines,but not a MM.I bet there is a lot of stuff you need to do with a dial indicator,so if you can get by with rings,unless you know what you are doing,it likely is the best route.Ask lots of questions if you find somebody thats worked on one.Keep everything clean as you can.I wipe the block of with lacquer thinner before I put the head gasket on for instance,and before I do that I clean it shiny with emery tape.A Cummins has a ring around the top of the sleeve that if you gouge it,it will blow a head gasket.Just in case you do pull the head off,its not all that hard but you need to know quite a bit more than say on a car engine.

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Greg Smith(MI)

01-17-2002 22:25:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Injection Pump - Replace, or Rebuild? in reply to Mike(MI), 01-17-2002 04:52:27  
Mike, I had a 1960 M5 diesel that when cold would start and run on 3 cylinders until it ran a minute and you would hear the fourth cylinder kick in intermitantly until warmed up enough. Someone told me that may just be a dirty injector. May I ask where you got your tractor from? You can leave a message here or personal e-mail me back. Maybe I can help you out if you need help with advice and what not. Hope this helps. Greg

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