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1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not?

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Alan

06-05-2002 20:55:42

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I would like a bit of information regarding the M-M UTSD-M. Will this tractor have live power? How many HP is this tractor rated? Does it share many engine parts with other models? Hope someone has a working knowledge of this model and will help me out. Alan

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Alan Dewsnup

12-30-2004 12:37:36

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Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-05-2002 20:55:42

In looking over these old posts, I am now closer to doing something with the UTSD-M. The OEM injector pump may not even be a very good core, kids vandalized it a bit. What is my best option rebuild or replacement? What other tractor types used the same injector? Should I really consider a retrofit for long term reliability? Hope someone out in the big world has some experience on this issue.
Alan

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Jason Lovas

04-14-2005 03:37:47

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Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan Dewsnup, 12-30-2004 12:37:36

Hi Alan~

I was performing a search on the internet, looking for a repair/parts manual for my 1958 UTSD-M for Turkey. I have not had much luck so far, but my search lead me to this post. Our tractors seem to be very similiar as my tractor was also vandalized years back. Regarding my tractor, all headlights are smashed, and all the return lines on the fuel system have been pulled off, but I think the main lines (going from pump to injectors) are usuable.

Have you started with your restoration project yet? Do you have a repair/parts manual? I understand these tractors to have a German Bosch fuel pump, but the pump on my tractor has two tags that each say American Bosch, despite the fact that its an inline pump (if I remember right, all the other U diesels had a round, distributor type injector pump). Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated as I am looking to fixing my tractor this summer. I have a limited amount of information on these tractors that I can forward to you if your interested.

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Andy

06-06-2002 07:40:38

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Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-05-2002 20:55:42

I think live pto was an option onn that tractor. 283 diesel was only used on U's. They did use the same blocks and heads as GBD's and GVI's. There should be a few parts tractors lying around in junkyards and some new parts still available. not much you can do with the bosch pump other than replace it with a roosa-master.

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Jeff

06-06-2002 10:42:49

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Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Andy , 06-06-2002 07:40:38

I disagree on your views on the bosch pump. You can still get parts and it is a good trouble free pump. Lubed by the engine oil not by the fuel. To replace a bosch pump with rossa you have to pull the timing cover and change the pump drive a

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Alan

06-06-2002 11:13:27

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Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Jeff, 06-06-2002 10:42:49

How can I determine, from the outside, if the tractor has live PTO? Any resource for determining the HP? What are production statistics, anyone know? Is this type M-M considered junk or should it be saved?
Al

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Jeff

06-06-2002 16:19:32

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-06-2002 11:13:27

No MM tractor is junk. If it has live PTO then it will have a lever that goes into a clutch pack on the left brake. It is still not a "true" Live PTO Depending on who you talk to or what book you read Horsepower will vary. U diesels if turned up they will be in the 50 horsepower class. What are you planning on doing with this tractor?

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Alan

06-06-2002 17:32:52

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Jeff, 06-06-2002 16:19:32

Jeff, What you describe regarding the "live power" on this M-M is real similar to the "live power" on my JD 70. What I consider live power is being able to break the forward motion of the tractor without stopping the PTO. Does this engine use a five main arrangement or a three? I have not as yet decided what the plan will be regarding the future of the M-M.

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reddog

06-06-2002 19:08:22

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-06-2002 17:32:52

My info reads that utsd were made from 52-56 total 0f 2404,ck for ser.# on plate on trans. housing, I belive that M was for miltary?

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Alan

06-06-2002 20:48:16

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to reddog, 06-06-2002 19:08:22

According to the serial numbers listed for M-M on this forum, the tractor is most likely a late 1958 UTSD-M. I don't have a clue what the M stands for? Maybe "modified" or as you say maybe "military" and maybe just another model designation that is as hard to understand as the rest of the M-M models. Any more insight? Is "live power" common or un-common on this model? Does anyone know how many were built in 1958?

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BMG

06-07-2002 13:51:48

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-06-2002 20:48:16

Alan,
There were 160 UTSD-M built in 1958 (10800391-10800550). There were a total of 1699 built from 1954-1958. The UTSD-M was originally built as a "knock down" tractor (partially disassembled) to be shipped to Turkey. Some believe that most of these tractors never made it to Turkey as many have showed up in the US and Canada. The UTSD-M had a German Bosch (in line) injector pump compared to the UTSD (and most other U diesels) which had an American Bosch (rotary PSB) pump. There were less UTSD (955) and UTSD Specials (300) made than the UTSD-M yet the UTSD-M is still a collectible tractor due to its strange history within MM.

The "live" PTO was optional on most U's. They were increasingly popular from the late 40's and on.

Hope this helps.

Brian

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Alan

06-08-2002 06:56:47

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to BMG, 06-07-2002 13:51:48

Brian, Would you desribe for me how the "live PTO" works on the UTSD? Is it basically a clutch pack or does it work by some other means? Was there more than one size tire available for this particular model? Thanks for your last post! Regards, Alan

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Jeff

06-08-2002 17:20:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-08-2002 06:56:47

Live PTO on this tractor is an add on. You pull the lever on the left brake and this stops forward motion off tractor. Your 70 has a true live PTO it has a PTO wet clutch in the back off the transmission. 335 445 tractors had the first live PTO from

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Alan

06-08-2002 19:11:45

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Jeff, 06-08-2002 17:20:30

Jeff, If the Live PTO is not clutched, what does it do, slip the ring gear into disengagement? I have seen something similar to that on the "M" Farmall's as an add-on. You have got my curiosity on this matter. You also mention that it is an add-on. Do you mean factory, dealer or aftermarket? Are you familiar with the major mechanics of a UTSD? I have a few questions on that also. Thanks for the post! Alan

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Kelvin

06-08-2002 19:42:37

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan , 06-08-2002 19:11:45

I have a '54 UTSD. (on gas now.) and I'm gonna take a stab at answering this 'how it works' question.
The differential pinion on the left side of the tractor is on a shaft that runs inside the left bull pinion shaft. they are coupled by a clutch pack (2 disks, if I recall) When you pull the lever operating this clutch on the left brake housing,the clutch releases, allowing the differential gears to turn the differential pinion shaft, while the bull pinion does not turn. this allows forward motion of the tractor to stop. All the transmission gears continue to turn, however.
Incidentally, these 'live pto' units have disk brakes in the housing. If you see a U that has live pto on the left and a drum brake on the right side, it was probably field installed. I'm pretty sure quite a few tractors came factory equipped with this setup and they will have disk brakes on both sides.

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Joe

06-08-2002 19:24:39

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan , 06-08-2002 19:11:45

I belive that the UTSD-M had the MM optional "live-power". MM called it something different, like power divert, but I can't recall for sure. Anyway, what it is/does is a clutch on the left side differential shaft. When the lever is pulled back this clutch slips and diverts all of the forward/reverse motion power of the tractor to this side. This allows all of the tranny gears to continue to spin including the pto, however the tractor stops moving. The same set-up was used on some late U's, ZB's UB's, and late UTS's.

Joe

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Alan

06-09-2002 07:43:29

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Joe , 06-08-2002 19:24:39

Thanks for the comments and description of how the "live PTO" works. That brought up another question. How trouble free is that arrangement? Is it husky enough to take the continual use such as in baling hay? I seems to me that this "PTO" clutch would have to be as beefy as the main clutch or it would always be out for repair as the weight of the tractor and implement would be against this clutch. What is the displacement of the gas versions of the UTS? How is the UTS differing from the gas 4 cylinder G's? Its a good thing some of you guys, with a working knowledge, are willing to help out some of us that never ran M-M tractors. I am enjoying the learning process. Wish my Dad, in the 50's, could have seen something like Yellow instead of just Red. Alan

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Kelvin

06-10-2002 15:47:35

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-09-2002 07:43:29

I've never used my UTS to bale hay, but I have used a ZB with the same type clutch to bushhog. and it worked great. Keep in mind that with a baler, this clutch is just pulling the tractor forward, not plowing. I can't foresee any problems, just don't slip either clutch.
One FYI: you'll probably want a overrun clutch on the pto so you'll be able to stop the tranny and shift gears. Otherwise you'll have to wait for the flywheel on the baler to stop, so the pto won't be 'backdriving' the transmission. This is also dangerous, because if the live pto clutch is not released, the baler flywheel will push the tractor until it runs out of momentum.
The only problem I've had with either tractor is the seal between the inner shaft and outer shaft will begin leaking and then the clutch will slip.

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Joe

06-09-2002 20:48:12

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-09-2002 07:43:29

I don't think the live power clutch has to be as beefy, maybe only alittle over half. My thoughts on this as that it is only holding the power on half of the differential. I have never used one of these in a farming situation so I can't give a first hand rating. From what I have gathered from everyone that I have talked to is a toss up. Some say it works well, others wouldn't take one if you paid them. It also depends on how much hay and how big your baler is. Big baler and thousands of bales a year will wear out even a new tractor.

Joe

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DavidBerger

06-09-2002 09:51:13

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-09-2002 07:43:29

I dont know about it taking the continual use of baling hay.my grandpa has 2 massey ferguson 165s and put the newer one,on the baler,i think it was a 74 or 75,but anyway,it is falling apart now because of baling with it.the other one is pretty much my dads and it is doing just fine.dont know how well or bad your mm would react to baling,but grandpas 165 didnt like it,and its newer.

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DavidBerger

06-09-2002 09:49:39

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to Alan, 06-09-2002 07:43:29

I dont know about it taking the continual use of baling hay.my grandpa has 2 massey ferguson 165s and put the newer one,i think it was a 74 or 75,but anyway,it is falling apart now because of baling with it.the other one is pretty much my dads and it is doing just fine.dont know how well or bad your mm would react to baling,but grandpas 165 didnt like it,and its newer.

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jerry eaton

11-22-2002 15:01:38

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to DavidBerger, 06-09-2002 09:49:39

That's like comparing fresh ripe oranges, to rotten multipowered apples. The only ferguson ever built that was worth having was built by Moline.

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jerry eaton

11-22-2002 15:01:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 1958 M-M UTSD-M, live power or not? in reply to DavidBerger, 06-09-2002 09:49:39

That's like comparing fresh ripe oranges, to rotten multipowered apples. The only ferguson ever built that was worth having was built by Moline.

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