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Off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up

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9N'er

06-14-2001 22:26:06




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Here's the situation: building a 28x36 woodshop. backside of shop was to have a 14' wide attached shed roof for storing my tractors/ 36 long too.

Landline IF the shedroof shelter was to be built would be 6 feet away. The land line is to a pvt owned property, and that line runs along a 15 foot wide wooded bank that drops down to a large wooded drainage. Beyond that is wetland for 200 yards then to an abandoned gravel pit. Essentially non-buildable site for the other landowner.

Town: will not grant a variance; structure must be 15 feet away.

The top guru of the zoning board is a guy that is stubborn and sees things in only black and white. No grey area. A reputable guy in town confided in me and said the guy is clamping down because he is jealous for irrelevant reasons. The guy is a nuisance more than a help and he stops by the place over past two years checking us out for more irrelevant reasons. It's an odd situation.

He told me that he will not grant a variance because we have other land to build a tractor shed. He told my building inspector, that I can build a tractor shed on the front of the building or in the front yard. But we have worked hard clearing the land to open up a vista and views to the river, mountains, road and horses across the road. A tractor shed, put in the front would detract from the future shop as a traditional building for business etc, and be right in the middle of the views. He doesn't understand what we're trying to do.

I'm battling the war in my head about really telling the guy what I think, or being diplomatic and trying to get my view across more appropriately. Should I ask the entire zoning board for a site visit? write a letter to the Town telling them our plans so they see the big picture? Or, just let it go...and take the approach of "you can't beat/fight city hall?" Or, what other advice do some of you have? I would appreciate the wisdom of those who have dealt with these matters succesfully.

thanks. -9N'er

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ZekeD

06-18-2001 10:53:05




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
9er, In CA there is a thing called a "Lot Line Adjustment" and if you and your neighbor agree you can move the actual line around so that you get the clearance and he gets a different piece of ground. The only thing is that the two lots have to end up with the same area that they started with. Sorta like pulling the string outta plumb. We did it to get access to the "lake" ("Lake" in CA = "pond" anywhere else in the english speaking world) and it worked great.

Zeke

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THANK YOU ALL. -9N'er

06-16-2001 07:38:10




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I apprecaite each comment and the advice. Diplomacy, friendliness, and some subtle pursasion and reason may win-out. And, I am considering a design modification by taking the situation, reworking it, and trying to find a solution that may even be better than my original plan. thanks again. 9N'er



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Ryan - IN

06-15-2001 20:50:38




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
It would also help to have the different neighbors write letters or 'testify' they have no problems with your plans.



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JDL/SD

06-15-2001 16:39:25




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  

Alot of good, well thought out advice offered.
I am maybe alone on this, but the first thing I would do is get legal advice. It can and often does save alot of steps in the long haul. I'm not saying to drag them into city hall with you, just get their opinion on what you are contemplating and ask for their imput. I for one have saved time and money and effort by asking first and taking action second.
Best of luck.

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tlak

06-15-2001 10:09:00




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
Why dont you approch your neighbor about buying what you need plus a foot. If the lands a waste like you say, it seems like he would turn loose of X number of feet for not to bad of price unless he thinks he has you over a barrel. I would also check this from every angle to make sure it solves the problem. You said a while ago that this shop had to fit the look of the area by what zoning said. Doesnt building a lean to in the front yard defeat this.

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9N'er

06-16-2001 07:34:31




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 Re: Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to tlak, 06-15-2001 10:09:00  
Tlak,

I agree with your last sentence. I raised the same question. It doesn't make sense to me too. SOme of my neighbor friends around here have offered to help me build the lean-to right in front, in the open, and have suggested nailing some old toilet seats and placing old pieces of junked tractor parts around it too. One guy said he would bring hos dozer down and push it around some to give it the used and abused look too.

My cooler head is prevailing however, and the advice this forum has provided certainly will be considered. thanks. 9N'er

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Bri9n(Ont)

06-15-2001 09:50:00




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I don't know the details of the zoing bylaw process etc, but I get into the same situation in my work where I need to get approvals for construction projects form regulators and agencies. My initial strategy would be to present your case, perhaps in writing so you can clearly presnt your side of the story, in a well thought out letter. This should present your case in such a way that it make it easier for the authority to approve your request. For example, I'm sure a concern of their's is in granting you permission, they will have others come forward and take the position that since they ok'd yours, then theirs should also be approved. So make your situation unique from others and present the officials with ways they can interpret the bylaws in a favourable light for you....ie. make it easier for them to say yes....last week I wrote a letter to the Local School Board requesting assistance from them in paying for some playground upgrades...most people involved said they would never go for it, but they did, because in my letter I presented a logical answer for all the questions and objections I thought they would raise...of course in the case of the playground equipment, if my letter hadn't worked, I was going to turn some of the ladies on the PTA loose on the school board reps...you probably don't have that kind of leverage...good luck, Brian.

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Al in PA

06-15-2001 07:05:42




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I was a member of our planning commission for 7 years and I've served on the zoning board for the last 10 years. The situation that you described is very common. Based upon my experience on the other side of the table, let me suggest a few things to help your case. First, remember that there are a number of members on the board and you can get the variance passed without the chairman's approval if you convince the other members to vote in favor of your proposal. Second, an argumentative lawyer will do you more harm than good in front of our board. Lastly, get a copy (can be purchased cheap as Dell would say) of the zoning ordinance and make sure that you address each of the sections that apply to your situation when making your case before the board. As stated earlier, deal professionally with the members of the board and pictures are worth a 1000 words: Supply a copy of your lot plan with your existing buildings and proposed shop added to the plans. Also, many photographs will help the members of the board see things from your perspective. A letter of support signed by your adjoining property owners - or their presence to testify on your behalf - will carry a lot of weight with the board.

Broad Picture. Remember that the board has to apply the zoning ordinance fairly to all members of your community. If granting you a variance will set a precident that will come back and bite them on the backside later, you will have trouble getting them to make an exception for you. Also, a variance is usually granted for a hardship and a hardship by definition cannot be one that is created by the property owner (ie. placing a building where you want it as opposed to moving it slightly to meet the setbacks required by the ordinance). Try to show that you cannot meet the setbacks due to a situation beyond your control such as it would encroach upon your septic drainfield or the shape/geography of the lot makes it impossible or economically infeasible.

If you do your homework, you have a good shot at convincing the majority of the board. However, if they vote against you, you can always appeal their decision to a higher body. You probably could use an attorney at this stage.

Good luck.

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Dave 2N

06-15-2001 04:48:01




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
9N'er-
When this situation comes up where we live, we file for a variance with the Zoning Board so I would look into that first; see if some sort of variance procedure exists.
Good luck.



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Mike S

06-15-2001 04:41:08




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I know of what you speak. We live in little town and have a septic tank. We were told when we moved there that it was temporary as sewer was coming. Fine for us because the septic tank is right where we would want to do an addon to the house. Well, we still have no sewer, 20 years later. They will not let me move the septic tank as it would require a new permit and they are not giving out new tank permits. When they did run sewer in for a new subdivision, we thought we could get into it, but it stopped 200 feet from the house and the invert is too high for us to get into it without using a pump and crossing a neighbor's property. So now we are looking to move from the house we own free and clear so we can have the room that we need.

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Bill (VA)

06-15-2001 03:57:57




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
Here is another possibility.

Would your neighbor be willing to carve out a small section so you would meet the code. If it is not really usable to him/her maybe they would be willing to carve off a small chunk.. of course there may be complications and expenses that are prohibitive.

or

We have a code here that allows us to build a roof structure with open sides without permits. For implement storage, car storage and such...build it very close to your shop but dont attach it... till a few years down the road.

good luck

Bill

PS nice write up on the steering wheels!

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Paul8n

06-15-2001 03:33:28




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I would try using drawings like an ariel shot (top view). Some people including my wife have no vision of the total picture. It is very fustrating. I own a business so I know what red tape is, everything has to be drawn and submitted in 5 copies, to 3 inspecters. If'n you can't convince them will brilliance thay bafflem with bull@@@@. Hope all goes well, Paul



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sfurn 52 8N 452896

06-15-2001 03:30:34




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
I am a member of both a Zoning Board & a Board of Appeals (some states call them Board of Adjustments).
Not knowing what state you live in or the exact nature of the area around you I can only make a general guess.
In Indiana, where I'm from, you would have to ask the Board of Appeals for a Variance from Development Standards. If the Board sees no safety problems and the neighbors have no complaints these are usually OK'd. I would strongly suggest that you get your neighbor whose property abuts your proposed building site to either attend the meeting with you or submit a letter of suport if the neighbor has no objections.
Gennerally the safety issues concern fire/ambulance/utility company access to an area. Other safety issues that may arise are too varied to even guess. Another issue that may be discussed is the character of the area's other properties.
I would suggest getting a copy of the zoning ordinances to study the setback requirements for your zoning district. What you are proposing is called an accessory structure in our codes. These rules are different than a primary structure (less restrictive).
Please note - our Boards do not always agree with our Plan Director's opinion..... .
You may email me if you wish.
Steve

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John (NL)

06-15-2001 01:09:06




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  

I don't know much about zoning disputes, but my moto is always "Telling a man to go to *ell and getting him there are two entirely different things." Sop follow the earlier advice and use your head. Remember, city hall isn't always very interested in what you want, but they may listen to reason, if you can come up with some good ones.

I know lawyers are not popular on this board, but there are some good ol' boys who have the misfortune to also be lawyers. If you can find one in your county who has fought this kind of fight before, it may cost some up front money, but save you makeing a big mistake and wasting a lot of time. Ask around, even down at city hall, which lawyers do this kind of work and which one does it best.

Good Luck,

John

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Big Mike

06-14-2001 23:20:44




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
We have been battling with the county over zoning issues for 5 years now.. The best approach is too stay calm cool and collected but persistant, ask alot of questions. Ask the same questions in a different manner.Ask if it had a firewall could it be built closer. Ask different people in different departments.Pretty soon one of three things will happen he will cave in, get transferred to another dept. or you will give up. Look around at other property and see if you can see the same thing that has been done... ask him how they did it...If you know the neighbor in question have them write a letter stating what a good nieghbor you are and how they are not opposed to you being granted a variance if thats thier opinion. You can beat them we are almost done with them and things turned out ok for us...we had alot to loose if it went the way they lined it outto start with but the longer we have been working with them the better its getting..

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roperboy

06-14-2001 23:02:41




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 Re: off topic, but I am trying not to get worked up in reply to 9N'er, 06-14-2001 22:26:06  
although i have never been in a dispute like that,i wouldn't give up that easy. i would try to tactfully try to wear them out so to speak. keep after it and maybe they will get tired of you coming around and give in. what have you got to lose? but be nice, they'll just turn their back on you if you aren't. good luck



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