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12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply

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Quickdraw

08-22-2001 07:46:34




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I purchased a new 12 volt coil for my 9n. There is a warning label on the coil stating that if the electrical supply is higher than 13.8 volts it will void the warranty. There are not any markings on the old coil I removed but there is a ballast resistor wired in on the back of the dash. I think that the alternator charges at 15 volts. Has anybody else run into this? If so, what did you put in place of the ballast resistor?
Thanks in advance, Doug.

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9Njoe

08-22-2001 12:59:33




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 Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 07:46:34  
Hey quickdraw,

I am going to set you straight on electrics and such. Coils and batteries use current not voltage to operate. Batteries charge from how much current is driven through them not how much voltage appears across the terminals. If your battery was open you could put a hundred volts across it and it would draw no current. The same thing applies to the ignition coil, it works on current.

The reason why the manufacturer does not want the coil to have more than about 13.8 volts across it is because of the enormous step up in the secondary. The manufacturer has determined that if more than 13.8 volts is placed across the primary of your coil, when the secondary charges to the high voltage, it will break down the secondary side insulation and arc internally. (Not desirable)

What the manufacturer should have told you is how much primary current is allowed and for how long. Unfortunately, most people think in terms of voltage and not current so the manufacturers have taken to specifying these things in terms of battery voltage and the ballast resistor value. If the voltage and resistance are known then the coil current can be calculated using ohms law.

The primary side of the ignition coil has low impedance. (low ohms) so if you place the battery voltage directly across the primary of the coil it will draw too much current and the coil will saturate. This is where the ballast resistor comes in.

This is getting kinda technical, (forgive me, I am an EE) but during the time that the points are closed, current flows into the primary and stores energy in a magnetic field inside the coil. The current linearly ramps from zero amps up to some value determined by the dwell angle and the ballast resistor. It is like pouring water in a bucket. When the points close, the bucket begins to fill with water. If the flow of water is too fast or the filling time is too long, the bucket will overflow before the points open. This is what happens inside the coil. When the points close, current begins to flow in the primary side of the coil and it stores its energy as magnetic field inside the core of the coil. This field has limits, too much current or too long a dwell and the core will saturate. When the core saturates, the excess current is turned into heat and therefore heats up the ignition coil. The ballast resistor "limits" the current to the primary side of the coil and prevents saturation.

It really makes no difference what kind of coil you have, 6 or 12 volts. The only difference is that a 6-volt coil has half the primary resistance of a 12 volt coil. It has nothing to do with voltage. The ballast resistor is sized for the coil at a given battery voltage and a given dwell time.

Here is a practical example:

Assume the following: the primary side DC resistance of the ignition coil is .5 ohms, and the dwell angle is say 18 degrees and the battery voltage is 6 volts. Lets say the engine RPM is idling at 500 rpm.

OK, the coil has to charge and spark 4 times per rotation of the camshaft or every 90 degrees. So 1 revolution at 500 rpm takes 120 milliseconds. Divide this by 4 and each firing cycle takes 30 milliseconds. With 18 degrees of dwell, this says that the coil charging time is (18 degrees / 90 degrees)*30ms or 6 milliseconds. So for the first 6 milliseconds of the cycle, the points are closed and current flows in the primary of the coil. Next, the points open, the field in the primary collapses and induces a large voltage in the secondary side of the coil and ZAP. Now for the remainder of the cycle, the points are open and the coil is COOLING off.

The ballast resistor comes in because if you connected the coil across the battery without the resistor, then the current in the primary side would be simply (6 volts / .5 ohms) or 12 amps. WAY TOO MUCH. The ballast resistor limits the current to about 5 amps. For a 6 volt system, the resistor value would be about .6 ohms given a coil primary resistance of .5 ohms. Now lets run ohms law again with the ballast resistor. (6 volts / (.6 ohms +.5 ohms)) this reduces to (6 / 1.1) or 5.4 amps OK. With this setup, for 6 ms the current in the primary side will ramp up to 5.4 amps, then the points will open, the spark will occur and then for the next 24 milliseconds, the coil is resting with no current flowing in the primary.

So why not just design a coil so the primary resistance is high enough that no ballast resistor is needed? Well, the turn’s ratio drives it. If they put lots of turns on the primary side of the coil so that its DC resistance was say 3 ohms then yes, you could eliminate the ballast resistor from the circuit with no problem. The issue is that if you double the number of turns on the primary, you have to double the turns on the secondary. A typical coil ratio is something like 5,000 to 1 meaning that there are 5,000 turns on the secondary for each turn of wire on the primary. You can see that if the primary side was set up to draw the right amount of current, then the secondary would have to have a huge number of turns on it to achieve the desired step up of the voltage. Back in the old days, this was impractical to manufacture so they decided to limit the current by adding loss to the primary side of the circuit. Also, the lower the primary current is, the less current has to flow through the points and that is a good thing.

So to summarize, The Ballast resistor sets the current in the primary side of the ignition coil. If a “6-volt” coil uses a 0.6-ohm ballast resistor, that same coil can be used in a 12 volt system with a 1.7 ohm ballast resistor. The coil will still have the 5.4 amps in the primary and the ballast resistor would get larger to drop more of the battery voltage across it. Instead of the .6 ohm resistor dropping 2.6 volts across it, the 1.7 ohm resistor would drop 9.3 volts across it and keep the coil happy. A “12-volt” coil has twice the primary DC resistance as a “6-volt” one.

There are other considerations having to do with the inductance of the coils and dwell time getting smaller as the rpm’s go up but that is beyond the scope of this discussion. I hope this helps everyone out there that has a smoking ignition coil or smoldering ballast resistors.

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Phil (AZ)

08-23-2001 08:55:52




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to 9Njoe, 08-22-2001 12:59:33  
9njoe, Good POST just a quibble on numbers, the ballast is thermal and "should" be operating in the "center" of its limiting range of ~ 1.25 Ohms / 2.6 amps for a 6 volt system. It is very important that it be in "CENTER" range because it determines the system performance during starting (low applied voltage) and the Max. Gen. output. The Voltage drop across the ballast is the BEST indication (measurement) of the system because bad connections etc. add to the total circuit resistance and although the ballast will automatically adjust to compensate it will then lose its ability (range) to maintain ~ constant current for low applied voltages (starting).

Voltage values are “always” assumed to be taken in a conducting circuit (take voltage readings but think current) and you are correct that delta current determines mutual inductance but you fail to mention 3rd and 5th harmonics energy and the importance of the condenser for those harmonics.

JMHO

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Claus

08-23-2001 07:56:02




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to 9Njoe, 08-22-2001 12:59:33  
The potential that the secondary reaches is limited to the gap of the plug and the dielectric of the compressed fuel molecules. Once arc over is achieved the potential does not raise higher. Higher potential can only be achieved if the gap of the plug is increased and of course the coil needs to designed for it.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Canadianiner

08-22-2001 14:42:02




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to 9Njoe, 08-22-2001 12:59:33  
Joe:
Thanks for a very complete description of points and coil ignition operation.
If coils and batteries don't use voltage to operate then I guess that hydraulics don't use pressure to operate?



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Al English

08-22-2001 13:42:06




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to 9Njoe, 08-22-2001 12:59:33  
Hi Joe,

I agree that the bottom line on the primary is current draw. However, because the designer/manufacturer of the coil knows how much current the primary winding will draw at a given supply voltage, specifying a maximum supply voltage achieves the same end, and is much easier for most people to understand and measure.

In my experience point life has more to do with coil primary current draw than does coil heating. The same high current draw/high output, coil that can ruin a set of points in a matter of hours will last for years when the points are replaced by electronic triggering/switching.

You mentioned the impracticality of designing/building a coil that doesn't require a ballast resistor. Well....although they are in the minority, there are OEM ignition coils for point triggered ignitions that use full battery voltage. It has been a long time since I opened-up one of those coils, but I don't remember there being an internal "auxiliary" resistor...Al English

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Quickdraw, I thought this was going to be simple

08-22-2001 13:28:49




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to 9Njoe, 08-22-2001 12:59:33  
Thanks for your advice & the amount of time it must have taken you type this masterpiece.



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Phil (AZ)

08-23-2001 07:26:42




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, I thought this was going to be simple, 08-22-2001 13:28:49  
QuickD, The most correct way is to use 2 OEM Ballasts "side by side", not in series. The Voltage at the coil will be ~ 10.5 Volts, from a 12.5V Bat and will "remain" at 10.5 Volts when Alt output is 14.5V

You can simulate the 14.5 Volts by setting up Your tractor in TEST Mode(points closed) and then Jumper the Battery from your Pickup (running) the Tractor Battery will charge to ~14.5V and you just turn on the Key (Test Mode) and measure Coil Voltage.

With the 12 Volt Coil "Never" leave the KEY On for very long. Watts = (VxV)/R

Hope This Helps,

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JerryU

08-22-2001 12:00:50




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 Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 07:46:34  
I have one of them thar coils with the same tag and left the RU4 resistor in just for good measure. Has been going for about 4 years. I did switch to a puller fan which pushes a lot of air, albeit hot, over the coil. Don't know if that makes a difference. I am a tinkerer by nature so after reading an article in the N Newsletter, I put in an oil pressure switch that jumpers out the resistor for starting and puts it in the circuit once oil pressure is reached. Just for good measure, I installed a Vellman kit that fires the coil using the points to fire the Vellman circuit. No condensor and points don't burn.

I am now working on a set of wings if I can get the ground speed fast enough. :^)

JU

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Claus

08-22-2001 10:49:23




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 Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 07:46:34  
According to Delco, their voltage regulators are set between 13.5 and 14.5.. Most I have seen are leaning towards the top end.. Get a resistor.13.8 volts is considered the nominal automotive voltage. Most equipment designers use this as a design criteria. Batteries have no problem with 14.5 volts.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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Paul8n

08-22-2001 08:52:32




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 Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 07:46:34  
Your 13.8 to 14.2 is the charging rate to keep your battery full of life. If you exceed that 14.2 you'll also void the warranty on that battery. 15 volts is too high, you might want to check, tweek, or replace your voltage regulator. Just my 01. worth



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Quickdraw

08-22-2001 09:56:14




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Paul8n, 08-22-2001 08:52:32  
O.K., so if it is charging within the normal range nothing else is required? I just have to connect the two wires together at the ballast resistor and let her rip?
Doug.



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no . . . Dell (WA)

08-22-2001 11:36:05




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 09:56:14  
Doug..... ..pay attention.... Read what Brad is saying below, he is correct.

The coil manufacturer is correct. Any volts at the coil "OVER 13.8" will melt the insulative tar and short out the internal wiring and reduce the sparkies and suddenly, you are back on the N-Board trying to find out why yer tractor donna run.

The Alternators solid state voltage regulator is INSIDE and is not adjustable except by replacement.

SO NO, you just don't "connect the two wires together at the ballast resistor and let her rip".

You need a different value ballast resistor and I don't know where they make 'em..... .BUT..... if'n you connect another of the same ballast resistor in parallel (side-by-side) with the original ballast resistor, you'll have close enuff to right value to keep the coil happy. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND PARALLEL, get yer local highschool computer geek to show you how.

Or take Brads advice..... ....Dell

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Brads8N

08-22-2001 08:43:19




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 Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, 08-22-2001 07:46:34  
Hey I know the answer to somebody's question! I have already burnt a 12 volt coil out because I didn't use another resistor in-line besides the one mounted to the dash. Get a RU4 resistor made by Borg-Warner I believe. I got mine at O'Reilly Auto Parts here in SW Missouri. My coil runs much cooler now and tractor still runs fine.



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Quickdraw, one last thing

08-22-2001 13:01:04




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Brads8N, 08-22-2001 08:43:19  
Brad, do have the RU2 upstream of the existing ballast resistor or downstream.
Thanks, Doug.



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doesn't matter . . . Dell (WA)

08-22-2001 16:03:38




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, one last thing, 08-22-2001 13:01:04  
Doug..... ...doesn't matter, upstream, downstream, electrons going home anyway they can. Downstream is easier to mount RU-2 resistor..... .Dell



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Brads8N

08-22-2001 14:10:59




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Quickdraw, one last thing, 08-22-2001 13:01:04  
I have the RU4 resistor downstream from the dash mounted one.



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good for you . . . Dell (WA)

08-22-2001 11:09:55




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 Re: Re: 12 volt coil, max 13.8 volt supply in reply to Brads8N, 08-22-2001 08:43:19  
the student becomes the teacher, old probverb..... ..(grin) Dell



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