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Tractor roll-overs

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Rob

10-03-2001 03:22:41

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In a discussion below about mowing on a hill there are at least two comments about a mower on the back of a tractor providing some minimal backward roll-over protection. There are two points I feel need to be made here.
First, attaching an impliment to the back of a tractor increases the risk of backward roll-over. The additional weight and the additional power applied are exactly the forces that make it more easy for the tractor to go on over. There is absolutely no way an impliment can be seen to provide protection to backward roll-over because it is the cause of the increased risk. The general rules are "do not operater a tractor under load with the front wheels up hill" and "if you find yourself in a difficult situation and your front wheels are uphill you should back-out of that situation."
Second, my recent internet search to find out if there was some source that could give a slope (eg. 3:1 or 2:1 etc.) that was considered safe to mow didn't come up with any numbers but it did come up with a few articles discussing tractor roll-over risks particularly and tractor safety generally. The information is those articles was uniform and identified the risk of roll-over, especially fatal roll-over events, as a backwards roll-over. Were you to make a search I'm sure you would find the same articles along with some rather detailed discussions of the forces involved.
My personal experience is that the front end of me tractor is light and will and has come up when my bush hog is on the tractor when I was operating on flat area. I wouldn't want that to happen to me if the front wheels were already uphill. My rear-blade has hung and the result is that the front end rises rather suddenly. It all happens so fast that there is no time to react. It is clear to me that if that movement continues, especially with the horsepower torque applied, then a point is quickly reached where no top-link or few pieces of cold-rolled steel bar is going to stop it.
For those of you inclined to believe that mowing up a hill is more safe than mowing across a hill please do an internet search on tractor safety or safe tractor operation and read the articles and guidlines provided. The result of that search and my personal experience reinforce my belief that mowing, or any other operation, up a hill is a bad idea.

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Gary

10-06-2001 22:02:13

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Has there never been a study to determine if an implement such as a bushhog would prevent a rollover? Lock the steering, tie a cable to a tree and the other end to the rear of the tractor, and send it uphill. When the slack is taken up, question is answered. I fail to see how the tractor could flip all the way back. But I could be wrong. My 2 cents

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Dave 2N

10-04-2001 19:13:08

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Again, it's common sense. There are "hills" and there are "hills." Where I come from and live, farming on hills is a way of life. Ever heard of the term "side hill farm." That's about all there are around here. We've worked the hills for years with no accidents. Some hills are too steep to work so they are brush and woods. But anyone with much experience knows that it's OK to go up hills and that a rear mounted implement attached at the right height and not carried too high will prevent rollover. I'm speaking from many years of practical, real-world experience. How this relates to "sudden stops" and such theorems I DO understand but I also know that a hog will keep a tractor from rolling over backward, even when working. Again, common sense.
I will say that I would rather be working uphill than downhill, esecially with an N. And I think most with experience would rather be pulling a load uphill rather than trying to bring a load down a hill, whether behind an N or Farmall M. Those downhill situations can really make you "pucker."

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tlak

10-04-2001 07:52:14

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Can you post a link were they specificly address this rear roll over because I think one of them would have mentioned this in their safety site?

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Pete

10-03-2001 18:33:20

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Rob, Take your nose out of the slide rule, and the writings of those who live every day life by the slide rule. Let's take a deep breath, ease into common sense mode and think this over; hitching too high on the rear of the tractor Does increase the chances of a rearword roll over. Rear mounted implements that are not at least partially supported by the ground like 3pt mounted sickle bar mowers may certainly lighten a front end. Implements that are at least partially supported by the ground during all but transport(bush hogs...) serve to stabilize a tractor. Even those implements that are mounted and not partially ground supported will provide some rear roll over stabilization when the front end raises, the implement will contact the ground and should help to prevent a roll. Speaking of N series tractors, I would certainly much rather be heading up hill with weight on the back(at a safe lift height) than down! I grew up in Upstate NY hill country, and the closest I have ever come to a mishap(knock on wood} was heading down a not to steep grade with a small running gear and 50 bales of hay. Yes the brakes are fine, the tires are loaded and have good tread. It is a weight issue, it was kinda like riding a long heavy articulated tobaggon with a high center of gravity! My opinions of course come from many years of common sensibly operating tractors on hills, not someones theories! ...and that brings me to the fact that all the self appointed experts have decided how unsafe tricycle front row crops are...another time I guess.

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Rob

10-04-2001 01:56:10

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Re: Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Pete, 10-03-2001 18:33:20

You don't have to worry about my nose Pete. It doesn't take a slide rule to understand where the horsepower pulling the impliment goes if all forward movement of the tractor is instantly stopped. It's that instant stop that causes the problem. The stop results from the mower hanging on a rock, post, or stump. Instead of the axel turning in the tractor the tractor turns around the axel. This is not a case where the tractor is "falling over" but rather a case where the engine is powering the roll. Imagine that tractor rolling over in an instant under 15-23hp and add the weight and ask yourself if that top-link is stout enough to stop it all from happening. You might want to start your investigation with this article on this web site: Choosing, Mounting and Using a Bush Hog Type Mower
by Francis Robinson. That was the first mention of the rear roll-over that I saw. Of course with all of your experience I can see where you may not want to be bothered with anyone else's experience or opinion.

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Randall(AL)

10-03-2001 13:08:30

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

You loader-equipped guys better be especially careful. Last weekend while unloading round bales in a very flat lot I had a Ford 3930 do a three-wheel stand that could have been detrimental. A small un-noticed hole not 18" around and maybe 6-8" deep ate the front tire in a sharp turn. If the round bale had been any more than 2' off the ground I would have done a "belly-flop". I've unloaded over 400 bales just this year. These type accidents have very little to do with experience and skills of operator or anything else. The only thing going for you is to have your head in gear and your eyes /ears and everything else in order. FWIW

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Dave 50 8n

10-03-2001 11:17:24

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

FYI: In case anyone's interested in Roll-Over Protection Systems (ROPS). It makes the N's look a little different.

Link to list of ROPS manufacturers
Link

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Steve Ia

10-03-2001 09:22:12

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Rob said:
"There is absolutely no way an impliment can be seen to provide protection to backward roll-over because it is the cause of the increased risk. "
If this is true, why do they put wheelie bars on dragsters and donorcycles and such? Seems to me that an implement on the rear would act the same way. Just curious. Steve 8N 169302

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Rob

10-04-2001 02:17:51

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Re: Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Steve Ia, 10-03-2001 09:22:12

The roll-over protection you are talking about might exist if you are roading your impliment. The deadly roll-over risk is when your impliment is working. The problem is when the impliment hangs and all forward motion stops. Nothing like that happens to a dragster.

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Rob in IL

10-03-2001 08:06:53

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Amen to common sense, our ground is mostly flat, the area between field and road has a ditch, top to bottom has maybe a 4 foot drop and is at most 15 feet wide and makes a good "v" I do not mow either slope up down or across, it just doesn't look like a good idea, would a sickle mower work for that kind of mowing?? I really believe some people view ditches as harmless to mow but I believe a 4 foot drop over 7 1/2 feet is pretty steep, any thoughts?? hope others are more carefull after reading all these comments.

thanks to all
Rob in IL

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Rob

10-04-2001 03:21:36

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Re: Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob in IL, 10-03-2001 08:06:53

That ditch sounds way too steep. Think billy goat Rob, billy goat. The side-bar mower may be a way to go. I have a 5' mower and I mow the top 2 1/2' of the ditches like yours and let the bottom grow. I control the weeds and trees and let the grass grow.

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Barnstormer

10-03-2001 06:26:18

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

I fully understand where you are comming from on this concern. My hill experience is very limited being a "flat lander". I would suggest that much of the concern for a backward flip is mitigated by a mounted (three point) implement. That is not to say that something can't break or bend and then twist and flip. But, no one can design for stupidity. I would caution anyone about trying to go to extremes because they are "bold". Two phrases come to mind: "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots" and "Good judgement is the result of experience. Experience may be the result of bad judgement".
Lastly, I have looked at some of the various brands of mowers, rakes, plows etc. I won't buy them because so many are, as you said, small cold rolled steel and won't stop much.
I have done some test track driving in cars and trucks. I will be doing some in a Hummer, soon. The same rules apply. Know your vehicle, know its capabilities and know your abilities. Again, beyond that is stupid.

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PCC AL

10-03-2001 07:33:45

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Re: Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Barnstormer, 10-03-2001 06:26:18

I am 100% with Barnstormer and here are my 2 cents worth. Born & reared in the flatlands of AL, we don't have mountains, but some hilly work where rollovers can occur. Since daddy bought our first Ford 8N in 1952, he cautioned and taught me tractor safety. I can still hear his words, "A tractor is the most dangerous thing we have on the farm" and I grew up with guns and cars, etc.
First, if there is above normal risk in a job, DON'T DO IT. No work or job is as important as your life or well-being. Let the grass grow if the job is dangerous. I could talk for days about the stupid things I have known people to do, sometimes killing themselves. As Barnstormer indicated, get the right equipment for the job and decrease the danger. There are mowers on wheels that the tractor doesn't have to pick up, but heck, I've seen hills that I don't want to walk up, much less drive a tractor without any attachment.
O.K., I've gone on too long, just use good common sense.
PCC

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tlak

10-03-2001 06:10:27

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Can you explain the rear roll over better? I dont understand the concept, wouldnt the three point only travel so far stopping the roll over given that you have a solid top link like your suppose to? The only thing I find in a search is hooking above the axle line or hooking up other than the three point or draw bar.

Found this #6 in the safety sites.

6. Don�t permit others to ride.
Tractors are designed for only one operator and not passengers. Children often plead for rides, but don�t give in. If you must transport people, use a pick-up or auto. REMEMBER - NO SEAT NO RIDER!

posters

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Rob

10-04-2001 02:50:21

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Re: Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to tlak, 10-03-2001 06:10:27

In another reply I mentioned that the rear roll-over is not the same as a tractor "falling over." A sideways roll-over is more like "falling over" while the rear roll-over occurs under power. Of course when the front end gets high enough it's going to come on over on it's own weight. All of this is more likely to occur if the front wheels are already up high because you are pulling up a hill. This occurs so fast that there is little or nothing the operator can do to stop it because the roll-over begins when you hang your impliment on a rock, post, or stump. It happens in the time it takes for the axel to make 1/2 a turn or because the forward movement has stopped in the time it takes for the tractor to turn 1/2 way around the axel. When all this movement suddenly takes place and under power by the engine the top-link and lift arms don't amount to much. By the way, nobody jumps clear of a backward roll-over.
The danger of a backward roll-over always exists and it increases when the tractor is operated with the front wheels uphill.

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Ed Gooding (VA)

10-03-2001 03:39:51

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Re: Tractor roll-overs in reply to Rob, 10-03-2001 03:22:41

Rob, I agree with you on this. In addition, mowing downhill can also be dangerous, IF you try and turn the tractor right/left suddenly and sharply and you are going a little too fast. I've got a rollover test video file that was produced by (I think) the Univ. of Nebraska during some tests. It's too large to post on my MSN site, and link to here but I can email to anyone requesting it. Others here may have the link back to the UN web site and may post it here.

Personally, if the slope is too steep to comfortably mow sideways, I'd consider a billy goat or Roundup.

fwiw..... ..Ed
'52 8N475798

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