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At wits end over electrical

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9N'er

07-03-2000 14:32:40




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The 12V system on this 9N is trying my patience. Spent the day trying to sort through problems. No results. Battery is fully charged. I cannot figure out the 12V wiring diagrams and my peculiar wiring situation. What is a terminal block? On this 9N i have a pull-out switch to turn on the ignition, and a push-in switch to fire her up. IS the push-in switch the starter switch? and the pull-out switch the ignition switch? and I'm getting juice into one end of the solenoid, but the lead from the other end of the solenoid out to the starter shows no juice. I direct jumped the positive battery lead to the starter. It turned the starter but arced too. I'm getting juice to the ammeter...but when I pull the ignition switch, just a slight almost to nothing movement on the ammeter scale. I have a voltmeter. I'm pulling my hair out trying to understand the connections...but I think it's all screwed up. Even had the wife for a few minutes sorting through a 12V diagram...and connecting wires. What are my options and is there an easier approach to this? This has got to be the most trying aspect of this 9n restoration...getting it to fire back up. I have lot's of questions...don't know where to start. On the solenoid is an "I" mark and an "S" mark. What does a solenoid do? Is that considered part of the starter? Diagram does not show anything about a solenoid. Is someone willing to walk me though this...is it possible? -9N'er

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9N'er

07-04-2000 02:44:58




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 Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-03-2000 14:32:40  
Bg, Den, Claus, Stump Puller, and Dave: thanks for the advice. Starter has 12V stamped on it. I believe the 12V alternator/generator is a Delco with alternator within. I'm taking the generator, and starter to the auto electric store tomorrow for a torough check and rn through. When connecting the battery lead to the starter, it just arced at the lead and starter connection. I like the idea of going back to 6V; and will do that. For now, because I have to let the ol' checking account recover, I'll get this 12V system working and drive this baby (once the hood and grill assemblies arrive form the auto body shop). ANd I better post photo's of it too...ol' Ellwood is expecting them. I hate to disapoint a man, with a barn-load of tractors, and the finest growing collection of lawn tractors in the midwest. Will take a fresh look at it today...

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tlak

07-04-2000 08:54:47




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 Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-04-2000 02:44:58  
When you get back from the electrical shop I have a feeling your going to still have to fix your tractor.
Take your battery out for these test.
One of these three is probably bad.
1.Starter selenoid, Four post selenoid, take the two little wires off the selenoid, mark one so you know where they go. Apply pos+ juice to the "I" terminal and ground to the "S" terminal. This can be done strait from your battery with two small jumper wires. The selenoid should make an audible click, it should be ok. I take it the meter you have is a multimeter, you can put this on ohm reading, you know this settin by touching the two leads of your meter together and you should get a reading. To double check your selenoid apply juice to the two small terminals and have your wife hold the meter to the two large post,you might need to take your battery cables off the selenoid to isolate it, when it clicks your wife should see the meter peg over. Selenoid ok. If no reading replace.
2. push button. Use the meter on the same setting and hold one lead on each side of the switch leads, have your wife push the button, your meter should peg over. You might get some reading with the meter with the wires attached and you might have to disconnect them. If the meter pegs the switch is ok if not replace switch.
3. pull switch. Test the same as 2. When in the run position your meter should read, if not replace.

From what you've said it would appear that your battery and starter are ok, so these are some of the other components in the start curcuit.

To read the scematic, this may help, for a pos+ system with neg- ground start at the batterys pos+ terminal in the scemstic and draw little arrows in the direction away from the battery, this is the way the juice flows. It should go to your selenoid first and stop because the selenoid is a switch. You can jump over the selenoid and draw arrows on down to your starter. You should have a small wire hooked to the same side of the selenoid as you hot battery cable. Draw an arrow on up to your ammeter, the ameter does not stop the juice just reads it then continues out the other side of the ammeter. If you have a terminal block the wire from the ammeter juices this side up for always hot, then draw arrows from all the wires on this side of the block pointing away from the block. Are you getting the ideal of the flow? When it gets to the ign switch ,if this is bad it stops the continuation of the flow.

Good Luck hope I didnt confuse you to much.

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9N'er

07-04-2000 10:04:48




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 Re: Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to tlak, 07-04-2000 08:54:47  
Tlak: thank you. What you're describing is just what I need to help understand this...a basic walk through. Here's where I'm at: I replaced the solonoid. The old was beat, but functioning...but replaced it nonetheless. I replaced the starter switch too. I'm getting current to the coil...but no spark at the plugs. New wires, new rotor, new distributor cap, BUT same coil and distributor. This is the most trying aspect of this project Tlak. Your walk through makes sense...I'll do what you say later this afternoon, and reply back to you. thanks. 9N'er

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Elwood

07-04-2000 04:22:33




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 Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-04-2000 02:44:58  
I saw that.



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Dave Todd

07-03-2000 22:51:50




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 Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-03-2000 14:32:40  
I noticed you mentioned that the starter works when you jumped it direct from the battery. That is good, as the starter still works. The arcing would be normal when you do that. There is allot of amps when you try to spin the starter. Hope the arcing came from the jumper cable end when you touched it to the starter post, and not from somewhere else. I think you need a 6 volt solenoid, or try finding the starter switch or relay for a 9n and use it. It would be much safer plus the fact that is just an on/off type of switch activated by pushing the start button, which pushes a rod which in turn pushes on the start relay closing the switch. Very simple, only two cables go to it. One from the battery to the switch or relay, and one from the relay to the starter. Then you would also have a wire from the hot side of the relay which should feed the rest of the system and as a means of charging the battery back up. Since you rebuilt this baby, 6 volts should be all you need unless you plan on using 12 volt pump motors etc. Wish I could be of more help. Best of luck on this. It can be very nerve wracking when trying to trace wires and not knowing for sure what is what. I can only recomend what has been said before, and that is if you can, go back to the correct switches and wiring for the 9N. You'll be much happier, I think.
Dave

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bg

07-03-2000 18:00:27




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 Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-03-2000 14:32:40  
A solenoid is a momentary magnetic relay or switch that allows current to flow through. Your 9N should nopt have a terminal block, but would have had a resistor device on the back of the dashboard that would function in a similar manner for the 6-volt system. Since it's been converted, it's anybody's guess. The push-pull switch would supply current to a momentary switch(the push-button)that would supply current to the solenoid. The solenoid supplies curent to the starter windings, so as soon as the push-button switch is released, the starter will stop turning(hopefully when the engine starts).
You don't say if you have an internally-regulated alternator, a 12-volt generator, a voltage regulator system, a 12-volt coil or a 6-volt coil choked down, or what. Sparking and arcing means bad connections or components. If it was mine, I'd rewire it to 6-volt(or 12 volt if you must), using good components. Eastwood has a book about 12-volt conversions that you might find helpful.

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Den in CO

07-03-2000 14:56:17




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 Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-03-2000 14:32:40  
Wow! A lot of questions! ON MY 8n The start switch (push in)completes a circuit to ground or NEG (with 12 volt conversion and NEG ground). Your pull switch is most likely the igniton switch and should read 12 volt at both sides when turned on. Check voltage at the coil and you should see about 3.5 to 4 volts with points closed or 12 volts with points open. A terminal block is nothing more than a terminal to connect wires together, however my terminal block had a resistor on it that went bad and had to be replaced. It was like a wound piece of wire at the terminal block. If your amp guage moves at all when you turn on the switch you most likely are getting voltage to the points. I can think of no other load that would come on unless you have the lights on. The selonoid is just a big seitch to put voltage to the starter. It sounds like you have a different one than mine but the one in my old pickup has an S for start and an I for ignition. the I connection was used to bypass the ballast resistor while cranking. Hope this doesn't confuse the issue for you.
Dennis

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Claus

07-03-2000 14:48:17




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 Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to 9N'er, 07-03-2000 14:32:40  
The solenoid you have is the standard automotive type. The I stands for ignition and is a ignition resistor bypass scheme. Do not connect anything to this terminal. The S terminal (Solenoid) needs to have 12 volts applied to it to engage the starter and should go through a switch from a 12 volt supply terminal. The ignition switch is not original and I would recomment that you replace it with the proper switch. (Key) One side of this switch should go to the 12 volt supply connection and the other side to the ballast resistor / dropping resistor if you have a 6 volt coil still in your system.
Happy Motoring
Claus

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Claus

07-03-2000 14:54:20




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 Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to Claus, 07-03-2000 14:48:17  
Addendum:
Bear in mind that the 9N did not come with a solenoid. It used a mechanically operated switch. Since you are using a solenoid, you need the extra swich to start the tractor. This will bypass the safety feature that was originally built into the starter switch to ensure that the tractor would only start when it is in neutral. Now that you have a seperate swich that is not controlled by the shift lever, you need to be extra careful to ensure that the tractor is in neutral prior to starting.
Happy and Safe Motoring
Claus

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bg

07-03-2000 18:03:22




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 Re: Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to Claus, 07-03-2000 14:54:20  
I looked at a 2N a few months ago that had a common household electrical switch wired in place of a keyswitch. I'm not surprised at anything any more. I suppose it was a "working tractor," but it didn't work too well.



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STUMP PULLER

07-03-2000 15:22:51




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 Re: Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to Claus, 07-03-2000 14:54:20  
AFTER YOU GET YOUR PROBLEMS SOLVED, YOU SHOULD THINK ABOUT GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SAFETY INTERLOCK STARTER SWITCH. TO DO THIS YOU WILL NEED TO FIX THE ORIGINAL STARTER SW AND USE A UNIVERSAL STARTER SOLENOID THAT IS ISOLATED SO THAT YOU CAN USE A GROUND TO START. WITHOUT THE INTERLOCK SOMEONE COULD HIT THE STARTER BUTTON WITH THE TRACTOR IN GEAR, STARTING THE TRACTOR. IF YOU ARE SITTING IN THE SEAT AND THIS HAPPENS, IT IS NOT DISASTROUS. IF YOU ARE STANDING ALONG SIDE OF THE TRACTOR IT COULD RUN YOU OVER. GOOD LUCK

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Claus

07-03-2000 15:04:07




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 Re: Re: Re: At wits end over electrical in reply to Claus, 07-03-2000 14:54:20  
Addendum 2.
The switched side of the ignition switch also goes to the anode of a diode or one side of a light bulb or resistor to furnish current to the altinator field when you are starting the tractor. If you do not have a current limiting device here, your tractor will not shut off when you turn the ignition switch off.
Happy Motoring
Claus



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