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Big question

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9N'er

07-09-2000 15:02:24




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The sparkies appear to be weak. There is a spark at the end of the plugs. But disconnecting the spark plug wire and grounding the end of the plug wire...no spark or arc.

Connected fuel. Turned ignition switch. No firing...doesn't fire up.

Removed resistor to coil. Direct 12V lead to coil. Engine fires up (boy does it sound good too).

Put resistor back on. Turned ignition switch. No go. Direct contact again to coil...no resistor...fires up (oh man, she sounds good).

Tried getting a meter reading: Set meter (this time) at 50 DC. Reading in at ballast resistor 30-40. Reading at other end of resistor...about the same. (I don't know how to set and read this meter all that well).

Changed resistors to a ballast resistor described in the Farmall 12V conversion article on this site. Same thing...30-40 in, and 30-40 out and same situation...attached the resistor...no fire-up. Remove the resistor...fires up. sounds good too. Help again? -9N'er

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9N'er

07-10-2000 02:49:42




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
I posted a reply below: but this just dawned on me. I do not know if the condensor I replaced was bad, or if it was a 12V or 6V.

I do know that the new condesnor is a 6V, and it is shorter in length than the one I replaced.

I do not know if the coil is 6V or 12v.

Here are the questions:

1. Let's assume I have a 12V coil...and a 6V condensor...would that cause the weak spark?

2. if I had a 6V coil, and a 6V condensor...the spark should be correct. ?

3. If I purchase a new coil: should I get a 12V coil and matching condensor, or 6V coil and mess around with resistors?

I tend to go 6V because I will convert at a later date. Looking forward to these replies. thanks so much 9N'er

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Old Ag

07-10-2000 06:10:00




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 Re: Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-10-2000 02:49:42  
The coil and the capacitor (condenser) should be rated for the same voltage. Because when the points open, all current is directed through the condenser which saturates, current drops through the coil, field collapses, and the high voltage windings cause an arc at the rotor button and at the plugs. When the condenser saturates, it sees voltage at or near battery/alternator voltage (~12V). The condenser is not actually "required" to run the tractor; it is there primarily to protect the points. The points would have a tendency to burn up over time if they are stopping the entire current through the coil each time they open.

About your coil, if I assume it is a 12V coil. Then there shouldn't bee a resistor between it and batt/alt voltage. It is intended to see 12V, and that's why you hear that purrrrr (nice, huh?) when you jumper out the resistor.

By the way, I'm sure the ignition system doesn't affect the looks of the tractor that much. Why don't you post a photo. Your 9N has become something of a legend around here. It should be on that "free calendar" thing. I'm sure Kim would agree.

Good luck.

Old Ag
'41 9N

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Old Ag

07-09-2000 22:50:39




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
9Ner,

If I understand correctly, you have the original 6V system on the tractor. That means you should see around 6.5VDC generator output going to the ballast resistor. I know the coil is supposed to get around 4VDC and draws about 3A. Doing the math (V=IR), that means you should have a 2.5VDC drop across the ballast resistor with 3A current so you need about a .8 ohm resistor that is capable of handling at least 7.5 watts (P=VI). I recently bought a 1 ohm/50 watt resistor from radio shack to use as a ballast.

To check your system, read generator output voltage or battery voltage (if you don't have an auto ranging multi-meter, select a 0-10 VDC scale). Then read voltage to the top of the coil with the ignition on. Subtract the latter from the former, this gives you voltage drop across your ballast resistor. A voltage drop in excess of 2 or 3 volts indicates that the coil is not getting enough current and is generating a magnetic field too small to give good spark. Check the entire circuit from the terminal block through the resistor to the coil using the ohm-meter on your multi-meter. The only noticeable resistance here should be at the ballast resistor and nowhere else. Also, you may need to check the coil/condenser/points part of the circuit to make sure there are no "leaks" of power to ground. Good luck with it.

I hope I have half your strength of character when it comes time to fix up my tractor.

Old Ag
'41 9N

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9N'er

07-10-2000 02:29:33




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 Re: Re: Big question in reply to Old Ag, 07-09-2000 22:50:39  
I don't have the original 6V...it is a converted 12V system. But I believe the coil is 6V (but a wild guess at that). I have a new 6v condensor.

I didn't run the engine long at all. And my starting attempts were short (less than 15 second cranks on the starter). Could I have burned the points if I was pumping too much current into the distributor?

Later this morning, I'll try to get a better meter reading and I suspect it's the wrong resistor, but what throws a loop in that logic is using the old resistor and I get the same results...???(worked fine before).

But for now, I had to think through some of my steps and this is what I remember (my head is floating out there too...I ran my dog into the clinic last night and put her to sleep...too much pain for her...couldn't stand it any longer...sad :(

At one point through this trial I set DC at 10. Got a 9 reading at top of resistor. Turned ignition on. Got a 3+ reading at top of coil and at other side of resistor.

Wouldn't fire. Replaced the resistor (I got it from the guy at the Auto Electric store...who said that he has used these on another old tractor...and it is rated to drop V's to 4.2) with the NAPA ICR13 ceramic resistor (it's about 1.5 inches long two poles (one in, and one out). Same results...same reading. That's when I just connected the direct starter/ignition line to the lead of the coil. Turned ignition (holding these two wires together) fired up (I pumped my fist several times). Pulled wires apart, motor shutdown.

Then I put the original round ceramic resistor into the circuit. Same results.

I'll try to get a meter reading while it is cranking over...but hard to do...it's a long reach while holding the key open...but I can rig something up to hold one lead to ground and the other to the top of coil. I have the moring free before I go to work...will see what I can do. -9N'er

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chuck

07-10-2000 19:42:10




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 Re: Re: Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-10-2000 02:29:33  
funny thing about electricity, If the voltage is too low, it won't work, too high it smokes.

do you know where I can get a front wheel fo a 2n?



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Dell (WA)

07-09-2000 20:14:28




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
9N'er..... ....From what I can interpert, ya gotta "bad Ballast" resistor. Its either open like a blown fuse, which is why nothing works when it is in the circuit. OR You gots too much ballast resistor thus cutting down the volts too much and therefore ya' ain't gonna' have nuff sparkies to sparkle nuthn'.

Unfortunately, as I kept reminding my ex-wife, I flunked mind reading. So I really can't make much sense out of your meter readings except ya' gotts more volts than the 12 volt battery ya' started with. "its a magic" (grin).

Maybe you can find someone to tutor you in the fine arts of reading and using a meter.

Everyone is trying to help, please report back with the "real reading" at the coil terminal with the points closed and open. (hint) You should have 12 volts with the points open. ..... .Dell

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norm-wy

07-09-2000 16:45:04




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
9N'er
Boy, this success stuff is certainly addictive. One dose and you're after another already. You are to be congratulated on the progress so far.
About your meter reading, you say you are reading on the 50 (volt I assume) range and see 30-40 volts on opposite ends of your ballast resistor. I can't figure out the numbers but anytime you read the same voltage on both ends of a resistor it means there is zero current flowing thru it for whatever reason. It might be open circuited (fried) and there may be no voltage applied to it. Is it possible that your ground probe isn't making a good connection. You'll get screwy readings if that happens sometimes.
As one of the previous posters mentioned you can't measure more than the battery or generator voltage on the resistor so check your manual on the meter and see if you can figure out what range (scale) you should be on and check that ground probe connection. By the way, are you using an analog or a digital multimeter? FWIW

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Dave Todd

07-09-2000 16:00:47




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
9Ner, You won't get a spark from the plug wire if you are grounding the end of the wire. There needs to be a small gap between the end of the wire and ground in order to get a spark. The reason you get a spark with the plug on the wire is because the electrode, or the part inside the plug is insulated from the rest of the plug. When the plug is grounded, the spark jumps from the electrode to the outer "L" shaped part of the plug. (My Mind has packed up and moved out) I can't think what the heck these parts are called right now. Anyway, that's why you get a spark from the plug and not the wire. The spark is jumping to ground. Hope this helps!! If you see my mind wondering around, send it back home!!
Dave

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Mike S

07-09-2000 15:24:03




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 Re: Big question in reply to 9N'er, 07-09-2000 15:02:24  
Hmm. First, get the book for that meter. You can't be reading anything much higher than 13 or 14 volts at the coil with the engine running. Maybe the scale just above or below the one you are reading is more in line with the right volts. Claus knows a lot more about resistors and such than me, but I think they are supposed to half the volts. So if the resistor is right it would take the volts from 12 to 6. Do you have the right coil? With the resistor wired in, does it get hot? What is the volts at the coil with it in? Just re-read your message. Are you reading the resistance of just the resistor to get those results? Or connected into the circuit?

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rbell

07-12-2000 12:12:57




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 Re: Re: Big question in reply to Mike S, 07-09-2000 15:24:03  
If current is not flowing through the resistor to ground, you will measure 12 volts on both sides (we calls it an open voltage reading). A resistor only lowers voltage when current is flowing thorugh it. I.E. it is connected between the 12 volt source and ground. Thats why when the points open the voltage reads high, and when they close the voltage reads low (the points are providing the resistors connection to ground through the primary side of the coil). The coil primary has a small D.C. resistance. Thats why the input side of the coil does not show 0 volts when the points close. I will shut up now (I am sure no one really wanted to know that anyway)

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