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12 volt conversion kit

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Art Melin

09-07-2000 00:29:53




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In the articles section it talks about a 12 volt conversion kit for 8n's with front distributor. Where are they available?




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rbell

09-07-2000 20:48:31




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 Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Art Melin, 09-07-2000 00:29:53  
I shall face the rath of the 6 volt purests, but here is my take on the 12 volt conversion issue. If, and only if you are willing to make the loving care and attention of your 6 volt system part of your routine maintenance, 6 volts is sufficent for your tractor. However, 12 volts can and does offer advantages. I have an unusual 9 in that not only does it have a 12 volt system, but it has a WICO magneto that has been converted to a distributor (hows that for hillbillyizing) It never cranks more than one turn before it fires, never! It ain't pretty! but it never fails! If you want 12 volt accessories like halogen lights, 12 volt pumps, radios (ok thats out on a limb) you might justify a 12 volt system. AND it is much more forgiving! CONTRARY to what some pundits on the board say there are 12 volt internal resistor coils available that DO NOT require the troublesome reducing resistor. However! they do not fit your front mount distributor! If you have an externally mounted coil, and you know what to ask for, (I.E. A Delco Remy coil for use without an external resistor) you do not need the trouble some resistors!!! You should always give more credence to the advice of folks like Zane who have been there and done that (for a living). Now that I have started someting that will get a range of opinions from a lot of folks, I will add that this is all MHO.

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Further thoughts - Larry

09-07-2000 17:36:43




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 Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Art Melin, 09-07-2000 00:29:53  
Having had all day to think about my quickly written reply this morning, I'd like to add some more.

Besides the continuing posts on "I'm having trouble, and oh, by the way, it is a 12V system", there are the "I've rebuilt the carb - three times - and it still won't start/keep running/quits" OR the "This is the umpteenth time I'v replace the points... AND coil and distributer and ... all the rest of the electrical system. ONLY to find out the problem was the carb or some other part of the fuel system for the electrical component/system replacers. AND vis versa for the carb rebuilders.

I should thank Dell and Claus for backing me up on my first reply. And ask them, if they reread this thread, is this not a reoccurring event? And as to Claus's telling about ads seeming to brag that they have a 12v system, that would IMMEDIEATELY tell me that tractor has problems that the guy selling it could not get fixed. Buyer BEWARE!!!

SO, Art, if your REAL problem is carburation, compression, or, a new one on me, dust in the distributer, then changing to 12v will do little to fix the problem. The N's are a low compression engine with only four cylinders. It just is not that hard to turn them over. A good 6v battery with GOOD connections all the way to a good starter is more than enough! I say that because of the following.

I had an old 1950 Plymouth in college. The engine was a 6 cylinder flat head, with many more HP than an N. In other words, a lot harder to turn over than an N. It was just a 6v system! The last winter I was in Iowa there was a ten day spell that didn't get above zero the whole time. The low every morning was minus twenty or lower - lowest was -28. That lowest morning was the ONLY morning I didn't start that car. I even tried, and might have made it, but descretion is the better part of valor, so I stopped before I ran the battery down. I came back at lunch, still almost -20, and got it started, mostly to recharge the battery. NOW if a 6v battery can do that, it most certianly can start that litle N engine.

Claus, I had a thought that might help the "timid" keep the 6V faith. They could add a switch to bypass the balast resistor. That should help to get good sparkies while the battery is grunting turning the starter. BUT, most important, use a momentary normally open switch, like a door bell button. That way leaving the switch closed and, "Horrors!", burning up the coil would not happen accidently. Comments?!?

Not to "pile on" Dave, but to make a point re: an 8v battery. I bought a low S# for a restoration project. Someone had put in an 8V battery for the gal I bought the tractor from. Tractor ran fine when I test ran it. Got it home and began to have problems starting. When I checked the battery cables, one just came loose when I tugged on it. The clamp had been tightened to the max! You simply could NOT tighten it any more. The hole some how had gotten enlarged to the point were it hardly held on the post. Then I rememberd her saying, "sometimes she had to 'tap' on the clamp to get it to start." *&^%$#@! the clamp-post interface was full of corrosion!! The 8V battery was a waste of time and money. A new set of cables is much cheaper than a new 8v battery.

NUMBER ONE rule on 6V electrical systems.
The post/clamp MUST be ABSOLUTELY FREE of corrosion!!!! Nolan, back me up on this, please! And, of course, tight - like, lift the battery up by the cable and the clamp will not let go.

NUMBER TWO rule, is like unto that, all electrical connections must be clean AND tight.

My old treatise on why batteries fail and how to keep them alive the longest has been over written in the archives. I'll have to rewrite it for the new guys, but not tonight. This ramble has gotten long enough!

Larry
8N75381

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Claus

09-08-2000 05:57:20




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 Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Further thoughts - Larry, 09-07-2000 17:36:43  
First, I would like to say that I am not a 6 volt purist. I worked with altinators for many years and are needed in todays high energy electrical use cars and a 6 volt system would just not cut it. My contention is that, it is not needed on the N since the N does not fall under that description and therefore is a waste of money. As previously stated, most conversions are done to "Fix" some poor maintenance problem. As far as the bypass switch is concerned, this could be easily done with a relay that was wired hot on one side and could then use the starter switch as a pull down of the other side. Then a set of contacts could be used to accomplish bypass. The N utilizes a (Ballast) resistor that is wound using special wire that increases resistance with heat. Although not as good as a bypass system, it does help some with sparkies (as Dell calls them) when starting.
Happy Motoring
Claus

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Nolan

09-07-2000 18:19:52




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 Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Further thoughts - Larry, 09-07-2000 17:36:43  
I was born a poor 12 volt child, raised in the house of alternators. Praise be to rectifiers!

Then I met my N. Truly this was for the heathens and unwashed masses. 6 volts? Why everyone raised in the house of alternators knows this is a sin! A *generator*? Truly an abomination! Cast this from the face of the Lord of AC!

My tractor was truly ashamed of its 6 volt dc sins, and acted it. Barely able to crank over, unwilling to start. The shame was deep.

But the call of satin was stong and unrelenting. Clean thy connectors, and it'll feel good against your skin.

So I relented. Actually, my starter solenoid melted, which inspired me to clean the other connectors since I was taking things apart, but that doesn't make as impressive a story.

Since the battery to starter soleniod cable fell apart in my hands when I removed it, I decided to replace that to. In fact, I got so carried away with myself that I decided to replace both leads, since they were itty bitty japanese car 12 volt leads.

With clean connections throughout, and adequate sized wires, I hit the starter button, confident that there would be virtually no improvement. The most surely that could happen would be a few less "e's" in the eeeee eerrrrr ..... eeeee eeerrrrr r..... ....eeeee eeeerrrrr that I normally got when I hit the starter button.

Truly I was stunned with the tractor went 'wizwiziwiz vrooom!!!" And I hadn't even jumpered the 12 volt car battery to it yet! My burning desire for 12 volts was cooled, and I no longer look at alternators with lust in my heart.

I have learned that 6 volts is quite adequate...*IF* it is maintained well. It will not tolerate the abuse and neglect that 12 volts will. It's the Eleventh Commandment; THOU SHALL KEEP THY CONNECTIONS CLEAN.

But I would still convert to 12 volts, for the right reasons (as the crowd gasps in horror). Sprayers and such are 12 volts. So's my electric hydraulic pump. And I can buy a 12 volt alternator with a life time warranty for about $25. So, if I find myself in bed with 12 volt impliments, or if my generater were to decide to die, there's a strong possibility that I would then convert to 12 volts, and lie myself down with the swine.

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Dick Tank

05-01-2001 17:45:25




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Nolan, 09-07-2000 18:19:52  

Need info. to convert a 1963 Jeep CJ5 from a generator to an alternator, it is 12 volts.



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praise Henry.........

09-07-2000 20:27:17




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Nolan, 09-07-2000 18:19:52  
Nolan.....ya' did it again. Well written. This is a "keeper" (grin)..... Dell



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Salmoneye

09-07-2000 18:06:24




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 Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Further thoughts - Larry, 09-07-2000 17:36:43  
Bravo!
Well Said!

When I got my 8N, the previous owner had put on 6 Guage battery cables, and wondered why he couldn't start it in the winter...Duh...

To paraphrase a wise man on this board, 'On 6 volt systems, keep your cables big and short'. I made my own cables from 1/0 (aught), fine wire, welding cable, copper ends, and brass WalMart battery connectors.
I soldered the heck out of all ends with silver and flux. I cleaned every connection I could find on the whole rig with a wire wheel on a battery drill. The whole production cost me 2 hours, 5 beers and less than $10.00 dollars.
6 volts is plenty for these incredible pieces of engineering. If you 'need' more juice, there is something wrong. IMHO, you are better off fixing the 'problem' then band-aiding the symptoms...

I will find out this winter if it was worth it, but so far I don't even need the choke to start her.

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len hennigan

02-22-2001 10:21:58




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Salmoneye, 09-07-2000 18:06:24  
would like to change any 100amp car alternator ac voltage heard there were kits to do this,can you help me on this, thanks @god bless



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Dave K

09-07-2000 07:52:04




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 Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Art Melin, 09-07-2000 00:29:53  
Don't forget to consider an 8 volt battery. AIt fits the battery box and needs no other modifications except adjusting the third brush on the generator (at least on my "C") It solves the starting problem for sure. Also, ditto on the clean connections advice



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Claus

09-07-2000 08:19:17




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 Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Dave K, 09-07-2000 07:52:04  
In my humble opinion, an 8 volt battery is not a good idea for the following reason. This will put about 2 additional volts on the coil. If you have been reading about all the coil problems due to incorrect voltages, keys being left on you are playing with the possibility of coil overheating. As others have stated, fix the problem of poor starting or whatever. My tractor as well as many others the engine starts about two turns of the starter.
Happy Motoring
Claus
Happy Motoring
Claus

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forrest

03-25-2001 05:10:36




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Claus, 09-07-2000 08:19:17  
I'm in need of a wiring diagram to convert a 1957 Ford 640 from 6 volt to 12 volt. Also, are there any manufacturers for a "ready-to-install" kit.

thanks!



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Steve

10-05-2000 07:09:14




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Claus, 09-07-2000 08:19:17  
OK Gentlemen....You have my undivided attention!
I have a 1957 Ford 850 and was considering converting to 12V because of staring and charging problems. After reading all the letters, I have decided to stay with my 6V system with a little help.
I was also born a 12V child. Where can I find an accurate diagram of the 6V Neg. ground electrical system?
I'm sure to most of you this is a "no brainer" system, but I would feel more comfortable if I could studt a diagram before hand and then go tackle this situation.

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Larry 8N75381

09-07-2000 04:27:20




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 Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Art Melin, 09-07-2000 00:29:53  
Art,

In all my years of reading this board, my conclusion is that you are just trading one set of problems for another when you change from the ORIGINAL 6V system. If you are at all electrically "disadvantaged" I would STRONGLY advise against converting. All the experts here know how the original 6v system works, AND because it is a FIXED design everyone is talking about the SAME system. When you go to a 12v, there are several DIFFERENT ways of doing the conversion - NO STANDARD!! So if you have problems when you have a conversion, it is harder to get the correct advice. Read Dells reply to the 9N post just below.

MY advice is to fix the basic problem you are having that you think going to 12v will fix. All you get from a 12v system is a little faster cranking speed - 12v driving a 6v starter motor. The coil is still going to run off the prescribed nominal voltage of 3.5v - unless you like to burn up and buy new coils. :-(

Read some of Nolands posts in the archives. He so adiquately describes how BIG a difference clean electrical connections can make to starting an N.

But if you still want to convert, email me, I'd like a 6v generator, etc.

Regards
Larry

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Claus

09-07-2000 07:21:58




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Larry is correct.....Dell (WA), 09-07-2000 06:39:40  
You are corret Dell. I have heard of one feeble attempt to justify the conversion and that was so they could run a 12 volt sprayer. A 12 volt battery would be much cheaper. I have a 25 gal. 12 volt sprayer and pull it with my Craftsman and use It's battery... Most of the people convert because they think it will cure some ill with their tractor such as starting maladies and poor spark. Most of the newbies are in this category. Usually, someone else made the recommendation. They also think it is cool or adds value to the tractor. I see many tractors advertised that state "Converted to 12 volts"
Happy Motoring
Claus

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Jim WI

09-08-2000 10:31:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 volt conversion kit in reply to Claus, 09-07-2000 07:21:58  
I'll be satisfied just to point out that my "feeble attempt to justify the conversion" so that I could "run a 12 volt sprayer" also included a mention that the generator was already dead.

That said, I agree with you about not converting for hard-starting reasons. That's purely a symptom of other problems.



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