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No ring groove ? .030 4rings ?

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Ray Md

02-05-2002 06:37:41

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If there is hardly any ring groove at the top
but tractor was smoking very bad (blue smoke)
how could the rings be bad ? Should you be able
to move pistons within the walls just a little?

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ZANE

02-05-2002 15:22:47

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Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to Ray Md, 02-05-2002 06:37:41

I have heard of all sorts of ways to find out the condition of the piston rings but the best way I have ever found is to simply remove one of the top compression rings from the piston and then carefully push the ring back into the bore about an inch from the top of the bore and measure or observe the gap between the ends of the ring. If it is in excess of .020 then it is going to use oil. Don't worry about the gap in the oil rings because after all the purpose of them is to wipe oil onto the cylinder walls so they really don't matter that much

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Timk

02-05-2002 11:45:09

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Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to Ray Md, 02-05-2002 06:37:41

Well, since you have the head off now, I think the only way you are going to be sure that the rings are OK is to replace them. At that time, you can mike all of the particular components to make sure everything is OK and properly renewed. But also, blue smoke can be caused by an intake valve sucking oil thru a bad valve seal. You may want to try to look under the intake valves to see if any are really carboned up bad to give you a clue about the possible culprit. And of course, when you change the rings you'll want to change the bearings, and if you need a valve seal, you'll want to grind the valves, and if you do those, then you may as well..... ..... ..agh ! ..there I go again. My $.02

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Greg

02-05-2002 08:07:45

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Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to Ray Md, 02-05-2002 06:37:41

Ray,
I'll throw my 2 cent's worth in too. As far as piston side to side movement in the cylinder, it depends on how much you consider to be a "little". There is of course a specified cylinder wall to piston gap that should be attained on assembly. This is measured with the piston in the bore and no rings on it using a ribbon type feeler gauge. I can't remember the gauge thickness, but you would pull it through the gap looking for a specified # resistance. This procedure is explained in the F04 manual.

I would do some measuring to make sure I had the correct dia. pistons matched to the correct dia. sleeves. It could just be a wear issue, but it could be an incorrect part issue too. Same thing with the rings.

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Danny in CO

02-05-2002 07:25:33

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Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to Ray Md, 02-05-2002 06:37:41

Ray,

On a 3 ring piston, you have 2 compression rings and 1 oil ring set. If the compression rings are good but the oil ring bad, it will smoke and use oil.

You say it has bad blue smoke, but is it using a lot of oil? Do you have any additives in the gas that could be causing the smoke? Have you checked the compression? If it is oil smoke, it could be valve seals also.

When you say there is hardly any ring groove, I assume you mean there is hardly a ridge at the top of the cylinder from ring wear. This would seem to indicate that the engine was rebuilt not long ago. If so, the oil rings could have been installed incorrectly.

Bottom line is, we need some more info. Compression? Wet and dry? Did you rebuild the engine recently?

Danny

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bj/8N./mt

02-05-2002 06:49:34

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Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to Ray Md, 02-05-2002 06:37:41

If you start with the assumption that most anything is possible then there are a couple of ways to explain what you observe. Was the tractor actually loosing oil before or were you just seeing rich fuel mixture smoke? Were new rings put in sleves or cylinder walls that had glaze and weren't honed? Are the rings gapped correctly [see F O 4 mauual for end gap specs]? Lots of possibilites and not enough information to give you one answer. Maybe somebody else has more insight.

Your mileage may vary

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Ray Md

02-05-2002 11:40:04

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Re: Re: No ring groove ? .030 4rings ? in reply to bj/8N./mt, 02-05-2002 06:49:34

Thanks guys, I was in a hurry this A.M. I bought this 50 8N and it was smoking real bad
and like a dummy just assumed it needed rings.
Tore it down and the .030 pistons freaked me out
and my buddy said the pistons should not wiggle
at all ?? I regret not doing a compression test.
How do you know if the oil ring is on wrong ?

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