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12 Volt Upgrade

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PsRumors

05-19-2002 09:32:39




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Ok! Everyone is saying not to do the 12 volt conversion. Exactly what kind of problems are you running into? It can't be that hard. I have changed automobiles from generator to alternator several times over. Maybe I am missing something. It is a 1 wire hook up and the lights get changed. The only problem I would see is the mounting brakets (just like an auto) which is supplied with the kit. This would allow me to run 12 volt accessories. Please let me know what I am missing here.

TIA

Ron

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;flksd;f

05-22-2002 08:14:56




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 Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to F. Light, 05-21-2002 11:37:56  
ththththth!!!!! !!!!! !!!!!



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DavidO

05-20-2002 13:48:00




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
There is nothing wrong with converting to 12V if you have reasons to do so as you stated. I converted mine about a year ago. It is a one wire alternator. It charges fine at low rpm. It cranks easily, runs great, keeps the battery charged. I believe that the 12V system is easier and cheaper to maintain. The only 12V systems that have problems are the ones that were not installed corectly. If you do not know how to do it, buy one of the kits. It should have all of the parts and good instructions. If you want to save money, figure out how to do it right and buy the necessary parts. If it is done right, it will work well and be very reliable.

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smokie

05-20-2002 06:09:04




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
rp as you can see it is a purist ishue i took care of the rpm problume by using the larger pully off the gen. did have to drill out the hole but it dose charge at a lower rpm now.
keep all the old parts you may get that purist fever some day when you dont have to any thing but start her up and ride har around.



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Dell (WA)

05-19-2002 21:35:05




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
Ron..... ...there is NOTHING WRONG with a correctly converted N-tractor to 12 volts. Problem there is too many shadetree electrics that are challenged by the idea of doing it like the instructions and think they know better. (they don't)

Problem with the deceptively simple 1-wire 12 volt alternator conversion, it generally doesn't start charging until over 2000 rpms and your N-rpms max out at 2500. Once it starts charging, it will charge at 450 rpm idle.

The more sophisticated 3-wire alternator will start charging at idle BUT without the correct decoupling devices, you won't be able to turn off your engine because the alternator backfeeds 12 volts to the ignition coil. I know of 7-ways to prevent that problem, depends upon how electrical knowledgeable you are which works for you.

Then you have to deal with the ignition coil. Frontmount, my advice is get a real 12 volt coil AND USE a 1/2 ohm 10 watt resistor from radio shack. Sidemount, get a real 12 volt "hot-rod" ignition coil and use NO RESISTOR.

Remember, alternators solid state stuff requires negative ground but 6 volt starters and solenoids don't care. Ammeter does care. Headlights gotta be 12 volts but don't care about ground.

I am a 12 volt advocate for the right reasons, that said, I haven't found the right reason for my eazy starting 6 volt 8N, and I know how to do it right.

Sound like you have some "right reasons" to convert. I would encourage you to do it right, follow the instructions, and if you are electrically challenged, get your local gradeschool nerd to do it (grin). Or pay a qualified tractor mechanic that really knows what he is doing..... .....Dell

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roperboy

05-20-2002 08:09:20




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 Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to Dell (WA), 05-19-2002 21:35:05  
hi dell, when i redid the cobbled up 12v on my 47 i bought a new alt from a local starter shop. it is a one wire and had to take many rpms to get it to excite. i took it back to them and they did something to the inside and then it started charging at low rpms around 800. dont know exactly what they did but it works great.



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Dell (WA)

05-20-2002 11:56:22




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to roperboy, 05-20-2002 08:09:20  
Not all alternator outfits know about that trick. I'm aware of it, but don't know how its done. Just know that the 1-wire doesn't want to charge until you really goose your cold engine. Something I'm reluctant to do..... ....Dell



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PCC-AL

05-19-2002 19:27:40




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
Hi PS, I am one of the few folks who still has the original 8N in the family. My dad bought it when I was eight years old.
In the early years, while everything was new, it started great. At least I think it did. Don't remember really. Anyway, after I grew up, it often didn't start. Sure, if dad or I didn't have anything better to do except to work on the tractor, we could keep the battery charged, connections tight and everything huncky dory. Sorry, our farm just didn't allow for that. There were chores to be done. I finally got tired of the hassle. The local farm repair shop put a 12V conversion on our 8N about 15 years ago and it has started almost every time since. If I keep the same battery in it for more than 3-4 years, it may not start. The shop charged me $75.00 for the entire conversion. My 8N is a working tractor and I want it to start when I push the button. It does now. Good luck.

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if you call it an up grade you have made up your mind==bj/8n/mt

05-19-2002 15:28:19




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
Once you decide to call it an up grade you have already made up your mind to do it haven't you? Just keep posting and sooner or later you will get the answer you want. You don't need a PhD in electrical engineering to do it and if you have a hundred bucks or more to throw at the machine for no real improvement then by all means go for it.

Your mileage may vary



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Thank goodness...

05-20-2002 20:03:47




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 Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to if you call it an up grade you have made up your mind==bj/8n/mt, 05-19-2002 15:28:19  
...for people who care about things like semantics.
Thanks BJ I loved it.
UD



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Upgrade or not, what problems are people having?????

05-19-2002 16:21:58




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 Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to if you call it an up grade you have made up your mind==bj/8n/mt, 05-19-2002 15:28:19  
Maybe calling it an upgrade is the wrong terminalogy. I currently have a 12 volt sprayer that I use on the back. I carry a battery and charge it after every use. Not a big deal but could be more convienent. I want to be able to use a high power spot light. Don't really want to carry an extra battery around for that. That are endless items to run off 12 volts. Upgrade, conversion, screwing up or what ever you call it the question I asked was what problems are people having. Hmmmmm, I wonder why the industry standard is 12 volts. Why didn't EVRYONE just stick with 6. Gotta be a reason.

Thanks for your input.

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Dell (WA)

05-19-2002 21:55:29




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to Upgrade or not, what problems are people having?????, 05-19-2002 16:21:58  
Ron..... ...maybe the question should be why 6 volts? Back in the really olden days, Boss Kettering of General Motors Cadilac in developing the electric starter, determined that the 3-cell 6-volt battery was the smallest and therefore cheapest battery that could reliably turn the starter and start the engine. Remember, they didn't have "Die-Hards" back then.

With the advent of "high-compression" engines, the industry was needing more umph, witness the arrival of 8-volt batterys to turn the engine. But what really made 12 volts standard was the change over to "transistor radios" that didn't need highvoltage vibrator power supplies like tube radios did.

Now the industry is talking about 48 volts, which is starting to get into dangerious electrocuting area.

Of course, solid state diodes in alternators helped too. I worked on a police car radio in 1952 that had Leese-Nievel (ibid) high voltage alternator with external banks of germanium diodes on inner fender wall to power their radios. Sucker had one of the original trunk mounted radars. Never nailed me. (grin)..... ....Dell

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Larry

05-19-2002 16:47:39




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to Upgrade or not, what problems are people having?????, 05-19-2002 16:21:58  
The only problem with this forum (which is still the best) is that people will answer every question but the one you asked. From reading most of the past commenteries on 12V conversion, the 2 main problems seem to be 1)Not all altenators can be hooked up 1 wire. I have to rev the engine to full speed to get the alterator to kick in, then it works at any speed until the engine is shut off. I need to study a wiring diagram I downloaded to hook up three wires to correct the problem, but it's not complicated. 2)If you keep the 6V coil you need to get the proper resistor. A good conversion kit should have the proper resistor and good directions.

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PsRumors

05-19-2002 18:27:41




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to Larry, 05-19-2002 16:47:39  
Thank you. Those seem like common sense things but with all the discusions I wanted to make sure.

Thanks again

Ron



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Dave Smith

05-19-2002 19:01:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 18:27:41  
Ron, The conversion to 12 volt is not for all Ners. If you have to use 12 volt accessories it is the only way to go. Save all the 6 volt stuff incase you ever want to go back. If you have a problem with DC circuts you would be better off to stay 6 volt and continueing to use the battery.
My 48 8N is 12 volt. I also have added a electrical tempature gauge, hour meter, volt meter and electrical tachometer. All work fine with no problems. Instead of using a lamp in the excite circut I used a diode that I bought from a local tractor shop that had male and female ends pre wired into it Ace part #S3300. That makes a neater looking job of it. Below is a link to N wireing that has a 12 volt conversion.
Dave <*)))><

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norm-wy

05-19-2002 14:48:04




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
Ron If you real;ly want a sampling of the problems encountered after a 12V conversion, just search the archives for "12 volt conversion" and pop a cold one, sit back and read all about other peoples headaches. FWIW



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Al English

05-19-2002 10:15:08




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 Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 09:32:39  
I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback on all the pros and cons, reluctance of the one wire alternator to energize at idle, etc. The biggest argument I see against doing it is loss of originality...Al English



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PsRumors

05-19-2002 10:56:28




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 Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to Al English, 05-19-2002 10:15:08  
By the time I get through with it it will not be original anyway (will be able to go back to). Live hydraulics are not original but will be doing that shortly.

Thanks

Ron

Ps. I have an 8n that will be being restored to original this winter.



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Ron/PA

05-19-2002 15:22:04




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 10:56:28  
There is no reason not to convert to 12 volt, It can be done very reasonably, and without problems provided you do it the right way. From what I read in your post, you may not have all the facts down pat yet. Please check the archives, and find out how to do it right, then do it right. Good Luck
Ron



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Ron/PA

05-19-2002 15:21:44




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 Re: Re: Re: 12 Volt Upgrade in reply to PsRumors, 05-19-2002 10:56:28  
There is no reason not to convert to 12 volt, It can be done very reasonably, and without problems provided you do it the right way. From what I read in your post, you may not have all the facts down pat yet. Please check the archives, and find out how to do it right, then do it right. Good Luck
Ron



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