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Forest Fires

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9N'er

06-27-2002 03:12:43




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I posted this below...but thought it would be of interest to others...


A word about Forest Fires...

This country is seeing, once again, the result of a 'no burn' policy implemented by the federal government since the 20's and before.

As a result of extinguishing fires for the past 50-100 years, forest floor fuel levels have increased, timber and plant species that have depended on fire ecology have changed, and timber stands that were once weeded out by fire have now been susceptible to insect and diesease outbreaks that have also created acres of standing dead timber that add to the fuel supply; timber stands susceptible to lightning stikes.

In effect, forest floor fuels, and 'ladder fuels' are created that not only allow the fire to begin and run on the ground, but then spread tree to tree resulting in running crown fires. With enough heat, oxygen and fuel, a fire to creates enough of it's own weather to gain momentum in the form of strong convection current and winds.

The result? 50-100 years of fuel build up, increasing the risk and compounding the risk for potential larger conflagrations as the years and decades of "putting the smokes out" continued.

I'm afraid folks, that the Yellowstone fires in 1988 was the beginning of a high alert and clarion call that nature is in control here. Trying to to do an end run and outwit nature only really comes back to bite us in the b_tt but in a larger way in the next go round.

Change is occuring but we still build homes and communities on the interface of woodlands and areas susceptible and having a history of burning and flooding etc. Will we learn...?

9N'er

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Mark Hendershot

06-27-2002 18:51:33




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
One thing about Mother Nature we can try to mess with her but she gets even. These Fires are going to clean out the woods one way or another. After our big fire most of the home owner did not learn a darn thing from it. Even ones who lost there homes and some buildings. Now they say it will be a long time befor it happens again?? We have even taller grass, dryer conditions, just less brush and trees. The ones that did not totaly burn still have what did not burn last year because we stopped it in some places. Most people want someone else to take care of them and the Goverment is more then ready to do it. It is a take care of me world more then ever nowdays. Or that is what insurance is for. Mark H.

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duey in MN

06-27-2002 13:21:54




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
I wonder if these "modern management" morons aren't cut from the same bolt of cloth as the court that prohibited the "...UNDER GOD..." from the Pledge of Allegiance!!! Sure smells (stinks) the same to me.

Minnesota has it's government-named Boundary Waters Canoe Area. We've taken care of it 'lo these many years, harvesting mature forest products. Now the BWCA is at similar risk, because of 30+ years of bureaucratic flat-liners.

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Joe Smith

04-29-2005 13:17:37




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 META HTTP-EQUIV=Refresh CONTENT= in reply to duey in MN, 06-27-2002 13:21:54  
<a href=http://pussy.matures-stories.com/>mature pussy</a>


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But Duey...

06-27-2002 13:31:45




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to duey in MN, 06-27-2002 13:21:54  
We still care about you...



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GOSH.....I'M TOUCHED

06-27-2002 15:27:15




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to But Duey..., 06-27-2002 13:31:45  
You're right on topic.....and too sharp for me. WE??? Your collective wit? Duey



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bg

06-27-2002 11:51:37




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
I've often thought how ironic it is that Nature has used fire and flood for eons to keep everything balanced, and we try to control those things. In NC on the Outer Banks, the folks who built $bazillion houses there want to stop the ocean from taking away the barrier islands. For millenia, those islands have moved and shifted and appeared and disappeared and nothing man can do can stop them.



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Another View - Evil Seve

06-27-2002 07:59:43




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
9N'er and Fellow Members,

I'd like to offer this view on the topic. Having been in the forestry business in upstate New York (even though I'm in Texas - long story), I'm more familiar with some of the fire issues than I otherwise would be.

Certainly everyone would agree that our forests, natural, commercial, and those under governmental/quasi-gov management are a precious resource for their beauty and value as building material. The same can be said for coastal lands, aquifers, earthquake-prone lands, mountains, swamps etc. As a nation, we actually have MORE forest to enjoy than 100 years ago because through governmental action and because responsible companies and individuals understood what was at stake, we collectively realized the importance of re-forestation and made changes.

I DO agree with your position on the "no-burn" policy. It is a formula for this sort of wildfire destruction of EXACTLY what we are trying to preserve. In my "educated" opinion, proper forestry management, vis-a-vis as timber companies provide, provides better (but not absolute) protection against fires, against diseases, and promotes more wildlife than "natural" forest.

Our well-intentioned "environmentalists" (and we all are - just a matter of degree and approach) don't understand or refuse to understand this. Their solution is a "no-human presence" policy to everything. This is wrong and wishful thinking.

As Americans we enjoy the freedom of being able to choose where we live and play. Often, we make unwise decisions which put us in harm's way even though the warning signs are apparent. My only problem is with people who expect the government to bail them out if they lose everything as a result of their decision to build in an area subject to disaster.

Most Americans (I still believe) don't think this way and accept the consequences of their decisions. Unfortunately, the press only publishes the hard-luck cases and our "ever-so-caring" politicians feed off other people's misfortune in order to get votes.

Combine the power of environmentalist lobbies and the politician handwringing and you have the formula for disaster you describe.

The vast majority of us on this board and our fellow Amricans lead honest, hard-working, independent lives and want to have little to do with government. We choose not to call our representatives and register our objections, we choose not to organize (en mass) and demand changes.

Special interest groups such as environmentalists are extremely organized. Though in the minority, they effect change (their way) because they are vocal. And they vote -EVERY TIME.

Do we?

Respectfully submitted,

Evil Steve

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Jim WI

06-27-2002 11:09:16




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Another View - Evil Seve, 06-27-2002 07:59:43  
Well said...

I'm glad you put the word "environmentalists" in quotes -- I don't think many of them understand the subject well enough to be described as such.



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I agree . . . Dell (WA)

06-27-2002 08:58:23




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Another View - Evil Seve, 06-27-2002 07:59:43  
Steve..... ...very well said.

As a Scout in S/W Colorado (near Durango) I helped re-plant what was called the Lime Creek Burn, a 3-year BURN started by the Ute Indians warparty trying to escape a whiteman's possie from what was Bakers Fork and is now Silverton.

In 1956, I surveyed timber access roads on Missionary Ridge which is now BURNING outside Durango. I'm gonna hate going home to visit next time.

Farmers, the ORIGINAL ENVIRONMENTALISTS..... Dell

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garmo

06-28-2002 07:56:47




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to I agree . . . Dell (WA), 06-27-2002 08:58:23  
Dell,

I live in Durango. If you can tell me how to post pictures I will post some that tell the whole story.



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Dick H

06-27-2002 08:45:18




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Another View - Evil Seve, 06-27-2002 07:59:43  
Great comments!

Yes, WE are independent... and we respect the values that have "made" this country. But, as you reflect, we will have to take the values of our restored N's and restore this country, before it is too late.

Letters and email messages to our elected officials do make a difference. Find out your representatives address and keep reminding him/her of your presence.



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Brian-2N

06-27-2002 08:24:11




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Another View - Evil Seve, 06-27-2002 07:59:43  
Amen brother. Having a degree in History, it never ceases to amaze me how often in history and even today, a small vocal minority can direct policy, especially if the media continues to blast their message at you, either willingly or unknowingly, to convince you that this small group is actually the majority way of thinking. Remember what Josef Goebells said about propaganda, if you say something loud enough and long enough, people will believe it. It's our fault because we don't take the time to vote, or protest.
"We have met the enemy, and he is us!"-Pogo

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rbell

06-27-2002 06:02:54




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
Sir, I respectfully submit that the no burn policy is not the only issue. As you point out the fact that people insist on building their dream home in a flood plain, or in the path of what is a natural burn route is a factor (of course they know the governement will bail them out when the inevitable happens) What frustrates me more than anything else is to see those idiots who build in the burn route and put cedar shake shingles on the house and let the brush grow right up to the side walls. If thats not asking for the house to burn I do not know what is.

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ThompsoN

06-27-2002 07:00:41




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to rbell, 06-27-2002 06:02:54  
Good point. I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba and we have what we call "the floodway". It is actually the largest man-made excavation on earth and is designed to protect the city by diverting excess water from the Red River AROUND Winnipeg rather than through it. When they use the floodway, there is severe flooding at the actual diversion point. Of course people (maybe 1000) have built large homes in this area and demand compensation every time the city uses the floodway to protect 600,000 people. JEEZ.

Finally, last week in Ontario a mother and her son drowned while sunbathing along a river. The river was below a dam and the authorities opened the dam. Now people are wanting the Ontario gov't to ring bells or sirens before releasing dam water. JEEZ again.

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Brian-2N

06-27-2002 07:42:03




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to ThompsoN, 06-27-2002 07:00:41  
Can go one better. I used to live near Westover Air Reserve Base in Massachusetts. After Vietnam it was semi-deactivated, and became a air reserve base instead of the Air Force. Much of the land was sold off, and condos put up. Now any time the reservists have a weekend, those idiots in the condos raise a stink. Well what did you expect stupid, you moved next to an airbase!
Or what about the yuppies who move into the 1/2 million dollars homes in what was once farmland, then complain about the smell from the 100 year old farm down the road who did not sell out?
Now you got me going!

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RON (GA)

06-27-2002 15:48:13




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Brian-2N, 06-27-2002 07:42:03  
We have a 1/2 mile speedway here in Middle Ga that used to be on the old NASCAR circuit...closed down in the early '80s and people built houses all around it....recently a man tried to re-open the track and you should have heard the uproar....you would think these people never knew the track was there...what a bunch of idiots!



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Jim WI

06-27-2002 11:05:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Brian-2N, 06-27-2002 07:42:03  
The ones that really bug me are those who move to the country to get away from the city and then want the same services (sewer, water, garbage pickup, etc.) that the city provides. And then they're usually the ones that kick the loudest about tax increases and someone wanting to build next to their house.



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Brian-2N

06-27-2002 12:14:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Jim WI, 06-27-2002 11:05:08  
True. In New Hampshire, there are 3 types of people. Natives (actually few in number), refugees like myself, who appreciate where we are and despise what we left, and carpetbaggers, like the people you mention. I wish those people would go back from whence they came if they miss it so much. Some people aren't happy unless everyone around them are miserable.



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yup==bj/8n/mt

06-27-2002 06:00:37




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
Will we learn? Probably not. Seems to me to be the same mentality that builds a starter palace in the tall pines with trees next to the deck then complains when no body will write fire insurance on it. It is hard for me to believe it took the insurers so long to catch on but seems they finally figured this out--at least in Colorado.

Up here in Montana if you were to propose a timber sale in a national forest you would get picketed by tree huggers. Can't even cut the fire damaged stuff from last year's fires. A tremendous fuel load just waiting on a forest ranger with a letter to burn.

YOur mileage may vary

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Jim WI

06-27-2002 11:01:32




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 Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to yup==bj/8n/mt, 06-27-2002 06:00:37  
My family sold some timberland in Wisconsin to settle the estate. The purchaser doesn't cut timber from that land unless he has an order for ridgepoles for large log homes (one of the few sources in Wisconsin).

Somebody (outside the family) commented to my dad about how awful it was that we sold the land to someone who was cutting down those beautiful old trees -- especially the ones that might be as much as 100 years old.

Dad nearly blew a gasket over that one.

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Fast Ed Ohio

06-27-2002 22:13:05




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 Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Jim WI, 06-27-2002 11:01:32  
Just wondering , here in NE Ohio you never hear of a Forest Fire, there is still a lot of wooded areas , my guess is it stays to moist and green most of the time .



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Jim WI

06-28-2002 10:25:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Fast Ed Ohio, 06-27-2002 22:13:05  
How much of NE Ohio is owned by the federal government? That's much of the problem -- the stuff owned by individuals and companies tends to be managed so that there's not enough fuel (dead trees, etc.) for a fire.



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Fast Ed Ohio

06-28-2002 23:18:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to Jim WI, 06-28-2002 10:25:38  
Jim WI, you have a point there, the only large parcel of land owned by the Federal Government that I know of around here is the Cuyahoga National Park and it was just started a few years ago, I dont know if they still own or controle the now defunked Ravenna Arsnal , it has several thousand acres never heard of a fire out there and its been government owned since WW 2 . I think it just stays to wet around here most of the time .

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Brian-2N

06-27-2002 05:50:10




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
I'm not going to start a political debate (maybe I am), but we elected these morons or they were appointed by these same morons. No things won't change because we keep sending these same morons back to Washington.
Anyone for a revolution?



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Salmoneye

06-27-2002 05:32:05




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 Re: OT - Forest Fires in reply to 9N'er, 06-27-2002 03:12:43  
Good Post

I fully agree and wonder the same things...



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