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2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size?

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Rich SW MO

08-20-2002 14:04:24




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I'm fairly new to tractors. What size 3pt dirt scoop will a 2N handle?

Also, the property I just bought has a pond with ALOT of cattails around the edges. Has anyone extended the distance between a 3pt dirt scoop and the 3pt system? I was considering using heavy walled pipe about 6 feet long that is just large enough to fit over the lift arms, and drilled to accept the mounting pins, with a crossmember welding the two pipes together and a bracket to mount the toplink to. This would extend the reach of the scoop. I'm thinking there wouldn't be that much strain on the pipes since it is more of a "pull" type equipment than a "lift" type. This would somewhat mimic the old "slips" like dad used with a team of horses.
I've been reading the board for a few months, you folks are a wealth of information, and helpful suggestions.

Thanks

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Rich SW MO

08-20-2002 20:15:00




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
Thanks much to everyone who responded! Safety is always important and it doesn't hurt a bit to have reminders. Looks like a call to an associate that has a Track hoe, a trip to the local Farm and Home for a scoop and maybe a rake, and a visit from the Landowner Assistance Conservation Agent. I looked into chemical control for pond vegeatation, but there is some risk, even with the ones that are "safe" for fish. Unless you cut or remove the dead vegetation from the pond pretty quick, decomposition of vegetation can seriously dilute the oxygen concentration in the water, causing a fish kill. The pond is supposed to be about 3 acres, but I kid you not, there's less than an acre of "open" water. Gotta get a handle on these things pretty durn quick before the seed pods start drying and spreading.

Thanks again everyone!

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Don (NC)

08-20-2002 19:45:35




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
I helped a neighbor spray her cattails yesterday. She ordered a chemical that's supposed to be safe for fish, etc., but kills the cattails and other marine vegetation. Sprayed what we could from the bank and then put my john boat in and sprayed the rest from it. I'll be interested to see the results. If you're interested in the chemical, I'll get the name. She bought it on the web from a pond management company.

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Dell (WA)

08-20-2002 19:09:38




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
Rich..... .....30" rear scoop works real good for N's, specially if you get the kind that is reversable.

BUT..... ...(and you knew this was coming, grin) N's are NOT the tractor tool for every job. Rent or hire one of those cute tracked back hoe's with a wide scoop bucket, about $100/hr + operator and you'll be way ahead of the $300 scoop. OR ELSE you'll learn how eazy it is to get your N stuck in the muck at the edge of your pond and learn new cuss words getting it unstuck. That tracked backhoe will stay on the high and dry and never get stuck and will dump the spoils up on the terra-firma where you can deal with them at your leasure with your N-Tractor.

BTW..... ...they really did make a "pond scoop" for N's long time ago but trust me get the tracked backhoe..... .....Dell

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Guy

08-20-2002 18:27:41




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
I have a 30" king Kutter and works O.K. for dirt and gravel. I take the angle grinder to the cutting endge to keep it sharp and tire chains helped alot. use it mostly for getting gravel out of my little pit for the the driveway.
I don't think that I would put extentions on your three point. You would be be putting the weight so far back I don't think you would be able to steer the tractor along with the safety issues others have commented on. I drove an 8n with a 6' brush hog once and couldn't keep the front wheels on the ground. My dirt scoop weighs 272 lbs. and has a 1/3 cu. yd. capacity. (which could be as much as 1000 lbs. if it was gravel).
For cattail removal, I have used King Kutter 60" Yard Rake. I have a real flat slope (lest that 2%) and cleared a path through the catails 15' wide by 75' out to the water. I did it when the lake was low. The trick was to screw out the top link quite a bit to angle the bottom rake rake towards the tractor and then I could hook them and lift them out. The only problem is that I worked alot better with my Allis WD45. Under the catails was a real nice sand and the tractor did not sink at all.
check out www.kingkutter.com

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Randy

08-20-2002 18:14:54




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
Folks: Just my 2 cents worth. I tried to pull out a small tree with my MF35(I know, wrong brand for this board) but due to it having a deep tap root, just pulling on it wasn't going to do it. Because my rope was attached on the tow bar under the axle, really low, I just spun my wheels a little, but never lifted the front wheels off the ground. So, like the previous posts say, the lesson is to always tow or pull with your bar below the level of your axle. Much safer that way.

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I use a cat. I, 30 worksaver

08-20-2002 16:57:51




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
Works fine for me. I generally scrape forward and move loose material in the rear position. Someone said recently that backwards ramming is hard on the 3pt. (it's also hard on a box blade grading bar...snapped mine)

I think the lifting capacity for the 2N is different than my 8N. Depends on the condition of your lift, I suppose, too. Still, on mine, if it's too much, I take out rocks, etc. and move on.

Would your method of cattail removal on the edges of your pond encourage your tractor to roll into the pond sideways or backwards?
dave 50 8n

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Rich SW MO

08-20-2002 17:58:11




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 Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to I use a cat. I, 30 worksaver , 08-20-2002 16:57:51  
Actually, the water has receded away from the cattails quite a bit the last two weeks. Having just purchased the property, I wasn't sure exactly how deep the water at the "edge" of the pond is. The cattails and the cattle that were on the place, seem to have built up and/or sloughed off the edge of the bank to make a ledge around the pond. I know that mud will get me quicker than you can blink, but there is a dried patch at the edge that the whole tractor will stand on firm ground. If there was any roll back (just wheels rolling not flipping), it would be backwards as opposed to a side roll. May see if I can talk a friend out of loaning me a digital camera for the weekend. Thanks for the link!

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Pic...Ken N Tx

08-20-2002 14:16:54




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 Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW MO, 08-20-2002 14:04:24  
third party image

This is a picture of my scoop, I donot know exactly what it would hold. I would be very careful extending the length out as you discribed..I think that you will be asking for trouble such as a flipover..The weight in the back, the incline of the bank and the extended reach donot make a good combo....Ken N Tx

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Don (NC)

08-20-2002 19:40:30




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 Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Pic...Ken N Tx, 08-20-2002 14:16:54  
Hey, just like my scoop...bought mine off the Leinback lot in Winston Salem.



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Eairlier post repeated....

08-20-2002 15:01:54




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 Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Pic...Ken N Tx, 08-20-2002 14:16:54  
Fatalities Associated with Improper Hitching to Farm Tractors -- New York, 1991-1995 Approximately half of all injury-related fatalities in the agricultural industry are associated with farm tractors (1). Since April 1991, the New York State Department of Health's Occupational Health Nurses in Agricultural Communities (OHNAC) program * has investigated 27 incidents of sudden rear rollover of farm tractors (i.e., incidents in which the tractor flips backward, rotating around its rear axle (Figure_1); these incidents resulted in 15 fatalities. This report describes four of these incidents, summarizes the characteristics of the 16 incidents that involved improper hitching, and outlines strategies for reducing the risk for their occurrence. On notification of tractor-associated rear rollovers **, a nurse from an OHNAC regional office and, when possible, an agricultural engineer (supported by the Northeast Center of Agricultural and Occupational Health, Cooperstown, New York) travel to the site of the incident. Both obtain information from witnesses and emergency medical technicians who attended the victim. Case Reports

Case 1. On September 3, 1991, a 71-year-old male part-time farmer was fatally injured when his 1950-model tractor overturned to the rear while pulling a downed tree. He suffered multiple trauma with a fractured neck and jaw. The tow chain used to pull the tree had been hitched above the drawbar *** of the tractor. The tractor was not equipped with a rollover protective structure (ROPS).

Case 2. On December 3, 1991, a 33-year-old male farm worker died as a result of multiple head and torso injuries sustained during a rear rollover of the 1958-model tractor he was using to pull a pickup truck filled with wood. The tow chain had been hitched high on the back of the tractor. The tractor did not have a ROPS.

Case 3. On January 3, 1994, a 42-year-old female farmer died from chest trauma when a 1970-model tractor she was using to pull a loaded pickup truck out of snow overturned to the rear. The tow chain had been attached at the top link connection of the tractor's three-point hitch ****. The tractor did not have a ROPS.

Case 4. On October 29, 1994, a 13-year-old boy sustained fatal massive head trauma when the 1953-model tractor he was using overturned to the rear while pulling a felled 18-inch-diameter tree that was still partially attached at the stump. The tow chain had been hooked directly around the rear axle. The tractor did not have a ROPS. Results of Epidemiologic Investigations

In 16 (59%) of the 27 reported incidents, improper hitching of equipment or material for towing was believed to be the primary cause of the rollover; 10 (63%) of these 16 rollovers resulted in fatalities. The remaining 11 rollovers were associated with various factors, including ensnaring the towed item on a stump, imbalance resulting from pulling an excessively heavy load, or ascending a steep incline in forward gear rather than backing up the hill; five of these incidents resulted in fatalities.

In each of the 16 rear rollovers attributed to improper hitching, attachment of the tow chain to a point above the drawbar was the principal cause of the rollover. Six incidents occurred while the operators were pulling logs, four while removing stumps, and six while pulling vehicles or implements. Only one of these 16 tractors had been equipped with a ROPS; the operator of this tractor had not been wearing a safety belt and had sustained fractures of the clavicle and humerus after being thrown from the tractor.

Of the 16 injured persons, 13 were male. One was aged 13 years; three, 20-40 years; seven, 40-60 years; and five, greater than 70 years. All 10 persons with fatal injuries had sustained massive chest and/or head injuries; in comparison, five (83%) of the six persons with nonfatal injuries had sustained pelvic and/or limb injuries. Of the six persons with nonfatal injuries, two were able to return to work within 2 weeks of injury; both had been protected from crushing, one by a ROPS and one when, by chance, the towed vehicle supported the overturned tractor. One person was able to return to part-time work after 5 months, and three were unable to work 11-15 months after their injuries.

Environmental circumstances that may have contributed to eight incidents included muddy conditions (three incidents); wet ground (two); and snow-covered, hilly, or uneven terrain (one each). Two injuries occurred during January-March, five during April-June, four during July-September, and five during October-December.

Reported by: S Roerig, G Casey, M London, MS, J Boyd, M Hill, M Anderson, A Grant, MS, D Morse, MD, State Epidemiologist, Friggin New York State Dept of Health. E Hallman, MS, J Pollock, MPS, Cornell Univ, Ithaca, New York. Div of Friggin Surveillance, Hazard Evaluations, and Field Studies, Div of Safety Research, National Friggin Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, CDC.

Supported in kind by bg

Bill

Editorial Note
Editorial Note: Rear rollovers of tractors are sudden events: following onset of rotation, the tractor may reach the point of no recovery in a period of 0.75 friggin seconds (Figure_1) (3) -- a duration often shorter than that required by the operator to react and attempt to correct the rearward rotation (4). In this report, more than half (16 {59%}) of the reported rear rollovers involved improper hitching of a load.

A rollover will occur when a tractor's center of gravity shifts beyond the rear stability baseline (the line connecting the rear-tire contact points) (4). For example, when a tractor is used to tow a heavy load, the rear tires may be pressed against the ground with increased force. An excessive load that is correctly attached to a drawbar set at the recommended height will cause slipping of the rear wheels or stalling of the tractor's engine before a rollover is induced (2). However, when a load is hitched high on the tractor or attached directly to the rear axle, less power is required to lift the front end of the tractor than to move the load or slip the wheels, which may result in a rollover through rearward rotation.

Although the association between rear rollovers and improper hitching has been recognized since the 1920s (5), severe injuries continue to occur because of the use of incorrect hitching techniques. The use of ROPS, in conjunction with safety belts, is an engineering strategy that protects tractor operators during rollovers (6). With the exception of use in special situations (e.g., limited vertical clearances), all employee-operated tractors manufactured after October 25, 1976, are required by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) to be equipped with ROPS (7) *****. However, of the approximately 4.5 million tractors used in production agriculture in 1992, only an estimated 1.3 million (29%) were equipped with ROPS (8). For some farm operators, retrofitting a tractor with a ROPS may be a substantial expense (9): in 1993, costs for retrofits ranged from $250 to $2200 (8).

Public health officials and the news media can assist in dissemination of information to tractor operators on strategies to minimize the risk for rear rollover. In addition to installation of a ROPS and use of safety belts, careful selection of the hitching point is critical. For proper hitching to a tractor, the drawbar on a tractor should not be altered by raising or shortening it, and the load should never be attached directly to the axle (2); a two- or three-point hitch should never be used as a single-point hitch instead of the drawbar (10); and loads that attach by a single point should attach only to the drawbar. Other strategies for preventing injuries from rear rollovers include 1) ensuring operator familiarity with the safe use of the equipment; 2) selecting a strong tow chain with a length sufficient to allow adequate stopping distance between the towed object and the towing vehicle to avoid collision and potential rollover; 3) using front-end weights, which counteract lifting of the tractor front end; 4) using a slow, steady pull; 5) maintaining a clear work area to allow sufficient room for maneuvering; and 6) operating the tractor slowly and deliberately. Farm tractors are not designed for logging and other nonfarming activities; therefore, it is particularly important to observe these prevention strategies during such activities. Finally, when a tractor is used to free and tow a stuck vehicle, the operator should hitch the vehicles front-to-front and drive the towing tractor in reverse, which minimizes the risk for rollover by transmitting all the engine power of the towing vehicle through the chain to the other vehicle

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Rich SW Mo

08-20-2002 15:11:33




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 Re: Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Eairlier post repeated...., 08-20-2002 15:01:54  
Yup, saw this when it was first posted. Most of the incidents sited were improper use of the toplink as a hitching point, utilizing chains, which are flexible, not the use of the entire 3 pt system. If you have personal experience pertaining to the system I described, please feel free to post or comment. With the system as described, the scoop and extensions should act more like "wheelie bars" to prevent rear rollover, as the toplink would have a downward angle from the tractor to the connection point between the extension arms. Thank you for your concern, and I am certainly open to discussion as to the actual physics of this idea. If it is proven unsafe, I will certainly abandon the idea.

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Jeff Hoo

08-21-2002 07:15:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Rich SW Mo, 08-20-2002 15:11:33  
re:With the system as described, the scoop and extensions should act more like "wheelie bars" to prevent rear rollover, as the toplink would have a downward angle from the tractor to the connection point between the extension arms.

I wouldn't be too confident about that in practice. If you draw the force line from the toplink pin to the Cg of the implement, you get an approximate guage of where the side-roll axis might be. Even with a short 3pt "wheelie bar", this side-roll action can occur, especially on uneven ground by a pond. A long implement on the back (which unlike a plow may not have any connection to the ground) might turn your tractor into an operator rotisserie.

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ThompsoN

08-20-2002 14:25:10




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 Re: Re: 2N 3pt Dirt Scoop Size? in reply to Pic...Ken N Tx, 08-20-2002 14:16:54  
Ken, do you have a shot of that scoop from the back?



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